Stage 18 Pinerolo-Galibier

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May 6, 2009
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It helps if you have two guys from your team in the break that can ride their guts out for you. He probably is juiced, I mean his brother was busted a few years ago for wiring money to Fuentes for "training advice", but was cleared when they couldn't find any evidence that Fränk had paid the money to receive blood transfusions. Also helps when you can afford the best lawyers in Luxembourg as well.
 
Sep 5, 2009
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skippythepinhead said:
I can see the points of the first post--while I don't agree with everything, I do see how it's possible to like Contador more after today. However, I take exception to the above point as I see it as equally plausible that Contador was dedicated to the Giro because he had no idea whether or not he'd be racing in the Tour. If today's stage made you like him more, you're really going to be hooked if his results are properly nullified.
What would be your mindset if you expect any race results in the current and prior TdF to be nullified?

Contador is only human, I think, particularly when I saw his response to the jeering of him at the pre TdF teams presentation.

On past statistics the UCI Appeal to CAS won't result in his parochial Spanish decision to acquit being upheld.

It would be a further ignominious victory if Contador won the 2011 TdF and had that result nullified also. I would not be surprised if he is sand bagging rather than being injury stricken/out of form.
 
May 26, 2009
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craig1985 said:
It helps if you have two guys from your team in the break that can ride their guts out for you. He probably is juiced, I mean his brother was busted a few years ago for wiring money to Fuentes for "training advice", but was cleared when they couldn't find any evidence that Fränk had paid the money to receive blood transfusions. Also helps when you can afford the best lawyers in Luxembourg as well.
And what Frank does you can bet that Andy does too, given how dependent they are on each other. I've also found this strange if you've given money to someone for a service and you haven't received that service, wouldn't you want the money back?
 
Mar 4, 2010
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thehog said:
Evans is already calling it doping based on his numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-surprised-with-tour-de-france-rivals-tactics

"They put it all on the line, and they really had to with a long-range attack there," Evans said of Leopard Trek, who placed two riders, Maxime Monfort and Joost Posthuma into the early breakaway so they could be present to help Schleck on his voyage through the valley between the Izoard and the final climb up the Galibier.

In ideal world, Schleck's attack should never have gained as much as the more than two-minute gap he enjoyed at the top. Evans described the obstacle the slight Luxembourger faced, even with help from the remnants of the breakaway.

"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."
Monfort and D€v€nyn$ pulled 70% of the time. Are they ET? :confused:
 
Mar 17, 2009
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roundabout said:
Of course I wonder what effect getting 338 or so sticky bottles from his car along the way had on his power numbers
Definitely this. The turbo bottles were the single biggest help Flandis had that day.
 
Mar 15, 2009
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thehog said:
Evans is already calling it doping based on his numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-surprised-with-tour-de-france-rivals-tactics

"They put it all on the line, and they really had to with a long-range attack there," Evans said of Leopard Trek, who placed two riders, Maxime Monfort and Joost Posthuma into the early breakaway so they could be present to help Schleck on his voyage through the valley between the Izoard and the final climb up the Galibier.

In ideal world, Schleck's attack should never have gained as much as the more than two-minute gap he enjoyed at the top. Evans described the obstacle the slight Luxembourger faced, even with help from the remnants of the breakaway.

"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."
Exactly.

New strategy.
Let your domestiques get doped to the gills.
Use them on the flats
THey wont get tested.

You will, as Andy Schleck, get tested.
But the time you make up on the flats will be the huge difference.
Creative strategy.
Kinda turns Postal's strategy on its head.
 
OneRaceWonder said:
So a rider gains your respect when it becomes pretty clear that he's been doping earlier, but maybe not anymore? I just don't see the logic in that. What about riders that have never doped?

Today was such a beautiful exampel of how juiced up AC has been before.
define before. you mean 2009? 2010? the giro 2011?
 
May 6, 2009
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BYOP88 said:
And what Frank does you can bet that Andy does too, given how dependent they are on each other. I've also found this strange if you've given money to someone for a service and you haven't received that service, wouldn't you want the money back?
Perhaps Fränk said that his wife wanted to take up cycling as a way of keeping fit and visited Fuentes who is by trade, a gynecologist, or she thought she was pregnant. I have really no idea how he got out of that one.
 
I don't see much similarity. Landis rode like an android. Schleck received vital help before the last climb which enabled him to still hang on to a large part of his advantage at the top of the climb. Take out the assistance from Monfort and the Quickstep rider and Schleck would not have had much of a gap at the finish.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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Velodude said:
Contador is only human, I think, particularly when I saw his response to the jeering of him at the pre TdF teams presentation.

On past statistics the UCI Appeal to CAS won't result in his parochial Spanish decision to acquit being upheld.

It would be a further ignominious victory if Contador won the 2011 TdF and had that result nullified also. I would not be surprised if he is sand bagging rather than being injury stricken/out of form.
Contador isn't sandbagging. It's not like him at all. Things are simpler. First, he raced and won the Giro. Second, he's certainly being more cautious about what he ingests than he normally would be, since he's been caught once, and the ruling is still to come down. Finally, the guys he's racing against have never been any cleaner than he is, the Schlecks in particular (the link FS - Fuentes is just as clear as the link Contador-Fuentes, and more recent). His complaining about injuries was a tactic - he surely did bang his knee up - but was trying to stay competitive somehow. There's no way in hell Contador didn't follow Evans yesterday except that he couldn't. Today he'll get dropped too. He's looking at a top 10 finish. Nothing more.
 
Jun 2, 2010
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Andy was increasing his lead against bunch of hard working domestiques AND Evans going full gas ON THE FLAT AND IN THE HEADWIND for a long time.

As Evans said:
"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."
...
"Some teams were riding, Euskaltel-Euskadi had four guys riding, but they were riding with three or four others from other teams and still losing time."

To me it is completely unbelivable.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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thehog said:
Evans is already calling it doping based on his numbers.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/evans-surprised-with-tour-de-france-rivals-tactics



"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."
Well. Chris A. Sorensen isn't going to gain much time on AS no matter where they ride. AS used his power in the flat, while the other fav's relaxed behind their teammates. Yesterday was nothing but an example of how big a role planning and tactics have in cycling.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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personal said:
...
"Some teams were riding, Euskaltel-Euskadi had four guys riding, but they were riding with three or four others from other teams and still losing time."

To me it is completely unbelivable.
Dude! Did you watch the race at all? Euskatel aren't known for their power in the flats. Geez, they couldn't agree on how to ride, and more and more riders caught up the peleton from behind. They did not go fast, and the size of the favourite group proves that. There's nothing with Andy's performance that stands out compared to what the other favourites did up Galbier. Races can actually be won by applying the best tactics.
 
Aug 27, 2010
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On my telly it was quite obvious. The bunch were bickering and arguing and not in any way organised when the gap was increasing. When EE-SBS finally sent their overused domestiques up to drag (after they had been dropped on the previous climb) the gap lessened slightly. Then the domestics blew again and noone wanted to take responsibility and the gap opened up again.

Evans might be too daft to see what happened, but from the chopper it was painfully obvious.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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Ney the Viking said:
On my telly it was quite obvious. The bunch were bickering and arguing and not in any way organised when the gap was increasing. When EE-SBS finally sent their overused domestiques up to drag (after they had been dropped on the previous climb) the gap lessened slightly. Then the domestics blew again and noone wanted to take responsibility and the gap opened up again.

Evans might be too daft to see what happened, but from the chopper it was painfully obvious.
+1

If the entire peleton is doped, or only the favourites, it looks like they're on the same stuff and the same amount. Today was just a performance of how tactics play a role. Nothing Landisesque about it at all.
 
May 26, 2010
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Oh dear people thinking A Schleck was riding clean and dropping the other GC favourites into a headwind after a huge attack, what year is this 1999??????
 
Jun 2, 2010
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OneRaceWonder said:
Dude! Did you watch the race at all? Euskatel aren't known for their power in the flats. Geez, they couldn't agree on how to ride, and more and more riders caught up the peleton from behind. They did not go fast, and the size of the favourite group proves that. There's nothing with Andy's performance that stands out compared to what the other favourites did up Galbier. Races can actually be won by applying the best tactics.
Yes I did. And I know what I saw. Bunch of domestiques going hard and rotating fast into headwind on (slight) uphill and still loosing time to man known who is riding mostly alone on slight uphill for many minutes and somebody not known for good time trialing.

It took some time to chasers to organize but eventualy they did. And even when Evans started going as hard as he could Any was still staying away.

Imposible.
 
Jul 19, 2010
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personal said:
Yes I did. And I know what I saw. Bunch of domestiques going hard and rotating fast into headwind and still loosing time to man known who is riding mostly alone for many minutes and somebody not known for good time trialing.

It took some time to chasers to organize but eventualy they did. And even when Evans started going as hard as he could Any was still staying away.

Imposible.
Domestiques that was dropped big time on Izoard? Watt-monsters like Soresen and the ITT-specialists of Euskatel? Like Andy didn't have Monfort and Devenyns/Silin(?) working? Andy worked hard and it's not like he didn't lose time on Galbier? One of the best climbers lost 1.30-2.00 mins on one climb.

There was nothing from Andy's performance that stands out compared to the rest of the favourites yesterday. I really believe that some people in here are chasing ghosts. I feel sorry for you, because while most of us are acutally able to enjoy good tactical performances, others are just in it for the scandals.
 
May 8, 2009
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OneRaceWonder said:
So a rider gains your respect when it becomes pretty clear that he's been doping earlier, but maybe not anymore? I just don't see the logic in that. What about riders that have never doped?

Today was such a beautiful exampel of how juiced up AC has been before.
So he was not juiced now but he was in the Giro...whatever.
 
Jun 2, 2010
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OneRaceWonder said:
Domestiques that was dropped big time on Izoard? Watt-monsters like Soresen and the ITT-specialists of Euskatel? Like Andy didn't have Monfort and Devenyns/Silin(?) working? Andy worked hard and it's not like he didn't lose time on Galbier? One of the best climbers lost 1.30-2.00 mins on one climb.

There was nothing from Andy's performance that stands out compared to the rest of the favourites yesterday. I really believe that some people in here are chasing ghosts. I feel sorry for you, because while most of us are acutally able to enjoy good tactical performances, others are just in it for the scandals.
There were enough of them not to have to be watt-monsters. Andy was helped by only one man and only for some time.

Please, do not feel sory for me, it is not needed or appreciated.

Your logic is wrong. You accept that he lost time on climb (he did, only at he very end) but not on the false flat and into the wind against group of men killing themselves and against flatout Evans? Really?
 
Jul 19, 2010
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personal said:
There were enough of them not to have to be watt-monsters. Andy was helped by only one man and only for some time.

Please, do not feel sory for me, it is not needed or appreciated.

Your logic is wrong. You accept that he lost time on climb (he did, only at he very end) but not on the false flat and into the wind against group of men killing themselves and against flatout Evans? Really?
No, everyone was drained! No one wanted or could. AS gave it all out on the false flat and paid for it at Galbier. He lost time all the way from at least the 10km mark. The other favourites took it more easy/were careful on the false flat and rode a lot faster that Andy during the final climbing. So my logic is fine. One guy uses his power on the "flat" and the other guys in the climb. The better tactical guy won.

I'm not saying that AS or anyone else isn't doped. i'm just saying there was nothing particularly fishy on this stage when comparing the riders. And that's why I still feel sorry for you, because you won't catch the ghost and thereby won't be able to appreciate a tactically superb performance.
 
Jul 16, 2010
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By the way, I saw Frank taking a suppo yesterday. What was in it? He was yelling at the camera to go away... Doping in front of live TV? Wow. I'm guessing there was caffeine in it or something. But why would he be angry at the camera man?
 
Jun 2, 2010
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OneRaceWonder said:
No, everyone was drained! No one wanted or could. AS gave it all out on the false flat and paid for it at Galbier. He lost time all the way from at least the 10km mark. The other favourites took it more easy/were careful on the false flat and rode a lot faster that Andy during the final climbing. So my logic is fine. One guy uses his power on the "flat" and the other guys in the climb. The better tactical guy won.

I'm not saying that AS or anyone else isn't doped. i'm just saying there was nothing particularly fishy on this stage when comparing the riders. And that's why I still feel sorry for you, because you won't catch the ghost and thereby won't be able to appreciate a tactically superb performance.
I told you not to feel sorry for me. Stop it or I will tell you what I feel for you. OK? :mad:

As Evans said:
"On a numbers basis, [it was] 20-30km of block headwind [in the] upper valley... we're 40 and they're four riding at the front, with one to nine guys riding behind. They rode incredibly fast in front, I don't quite understand how they made so much time."
...
"Some teams were riding, Euskaltel-Euskadi had four guys riding, but they were riding with three or four others from other teams and still losing time."

I am pretty sure he knows what he is talking about. Do you feel sorry for him too? :rolleyes:

He gained time singlehandledly against a number of people and Evans on the fals flat into headwind. Anybody who races himself knows what that means.
But, some people don't want to see something sometimes.
 

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