State of the peloton 2021

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Doping is taking huge risks?! Lol. And doping makes sense for practically everyone. Not a super advanced or a high risk program, but doping to some degree makes sense for neo-pros and juniors too. What's the downside? Do you think it will hamper their development?

And I would like to see support of the claim that not just 50 % of the peloton is going faster than without covid, but 100 %.
If there was no risk, then why bother waiting for covid and Lockdown? If not a super avanced program, then what is the other part of the explanation of what we're seeing?
 
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also, I´ve read many times the OOC testing is not effective, it can be gamed, it can be beaten. but now I read the easing and reduction of the OOCe tsting, because of obvious lockdowns measures, has made it easier for riders to dope. and probably the same people saying OOC testing is not effective, are now saying less OOC testing has riders going hard on PEDs.
I think you can be a bit more accurate. Is there a specific poster here who have claimed that OOC is without any effect at all and who now claims that the lack of OOC testing have an impact on performances?

Surely, a claim that OOC testing can be gamed and that it is imperfect does not mean that it is without effect.

If you can’t recall any specific poster’s double standards, can you at least be less vague in what the contradiction is?
 
If there was no risk, then why bother waiting for covid and Lockdown? If not a super avanced program, then what is the other part of the explanation of what we're seeing?
If there is not huge risks, there is no risk. Cool.

Different grades and cocktails of doping is not possible either. You’re either on a program with blood bags and the newest peds, or you’re completely clean.

What a nuanced conversation.
 
If there is not huge risks, there is no risk. Cool.

Different graduations of doping is not possible either. You’re either on a program with blood bags and the newest peds, or you’re completely clean.

What a nuanced conversation.
What a naive conversation is more accurate. We are seeing results out of left field, entire groups including B-tier climbers, breaking records of super climbers, but assuming it's due to doping, it's something mild? The difference within the peloton, only going on results we can perceive, going from not really remarkable to everyone going full tilt, is down to "a somewhat reduced" risk due to less testing. Ok.

I'm not preaching that there is a new super drug, but if you are arguing that doping is involved, then what we are seeing is clearly either something with a big impact, or either it is only part of the explanation.
 
What a naive conversation is more accurate. We are seeing results out of left field, entire groups including B-tier climbers, breaking records of super climbers, but assuming it's due to doping, it's something mild? The difference within the peloton, only going on results we can perceive, going from not really remarkable to everyone going full tilt, is down to "a somewhat reduced" risk due to less testing. Ok.

I'm not preaching that there is a new super drug, but if you are arguing that doping is involved, then what we are seeing is clearly either something with a big impact, or either it is only part of the explanation.
So what do you want to discuss, the top performances we see or whether it is reasonable for juniors and neo-pros to dope? When you conflate the top end doping with that of the peloton at large, you are wasting others’ time with motte and bailey.
 
So what do you want to discuss, the top performances we see or whether it is reasonable for juniors and neo-pros to dope? When you conflate the top end doping with that of the peloton at large, you are wasting others’ time with motte and bailey.
I'm looking for an explanation that makes sense. So far i have read few things that make sense, be it from you, or others in this thread. The huge jump is not explained by "somewhat reduced risk" in testing. Hence i'm not a believer of covid/testing theory since i can nog imagine such a large sample size of the peloton (be it 50, 75 or 100%) is suddenly game. It is not explained by something low level, since the record breaking efforts are too obvious and legio by many different riders. If that means i'm wasting your time, by all means feel free to ignore my posts, not going to lose sleep over it.

We know not all teams were on ketones at first, what if more are using them now. What do we actually know about them? There was a big study by KUL researchers who said the impact for pro's was not nearly as big as for untrained people, "only" and "maybe" 1%. One percent might be huge over the course of a 200k race, especially in stageraces, if that means better recovery day after day. Does this accumulate? If so i could easily see riders in the 3rd week being much fresher, for instance.
 
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the fact that its happening in covid season is far too coincidental for my taste, you couldnt invent a better time to do PEDs than now - no only is there an oportunity but also there isnt "political will" to fight it because of big financial loss

imho there are 3 big factors in it - drugs (they are everpresent), natural scientific advancement (might be ketones, might be some other marginal gains type of stuff) and simple fact that uncertainty over races creates a lot of desperation, because you never know if the season isnt canceled tommorow, especially with riders in contract year, being on top of their game while they can is important (nobody wants to end up like NTT guys), it would be foolish to save yourself for Tour when you dont know if there is going to be one

safe to say, once we arrive into the end of the season and the performances are still mindblowing, there will be only one answer left - especially if we see CX guys riding all year around, in top form, without breaks and still demolishing the oposition
 
Oh
the fact that its happening in covid season is far too coincidental for my taste, you couldnt invent a better time to do PEDs than now - no only is there an oportunity but also there isnt "political will" to fight it because of big financial loss

imho there are 3 big factors in it - drugs (they are everpresent), natural scientific advancement (might be ketones, might be some other marginal gains type of stuff) and simple fact that uncertainty over races creates a lot of desperation, because you never know if the season isnt canceled tommorow, especially with riders in contract year, being on top of their game while they can is important (nobody wants to end up like NTT guys), it would be foolish to save yourself for Tour when you dont know if there is going to be one

safe to say, once we arrive into the end of the season and the performances are still mindblowing, there will be only one answer left - especially if we see CX guys riding all year around, in top form, without breaks and still demolishing the oposition
I think this about sums it up!
 
I would add that the performance increases are so big it's more than any marginal gains. I doubt it's ketones or anything we know a lot about.
That's why I think saganftw hit the nail on the head. It's a combo of things, and some are obviously bigger and more impactful than others. I think you will definitely see some gains due to ketones if they are helping with any degree of weight loss, sparing glycogen, etc., and we know there have been advances there. You will also see some gains from equipment (and we know there have been some improvements in that category). And from being on form because the season could end next week. And obviously doping, in whatever form. But I also believe it is the combo as to why we are seeing records not just get broken, but get shattered, frequently. And while the winner's are truly demonstrating some crazy performances, we see the entire peloton is "flying" and at a "high level".
 
That's why I think saganftw hit the nail on the head. It's a combo of things, and some are obviously bigger and more impactful than others. I think you will definitely see some gains due to ketones if they are helping with any degree of weight loss, sparing glycogen, etc., and we know there have been advances there. You will also see some gains from equipment (and we know there have been some improvements in that category). And from being on form because the season could end next week. And obviously doping, in whatever form. But I also believe it is the combo as to why we are seeing records not just get broken, but get shattered, frequently. And while the winner's are truly demonstrating some crazy performances, we see the entire peloton is "flying" and at a "high level".
How long have people been talking about ketones? I'd feel that stuff would be pretty refined by now, and it's not like 2019 had a lot of stratospheric climbing times.
 
How long have people been talking about ketones? I'd feel that stuff would be pretty refined by now, and it's not like 2019 had a lot of stratospheric climbing times.
It was an example because it came to mind. Also, have you checked out the prices on stuff like this? It's not all the same, and I think some is pretty hard to get hold of. It is also not just take and forget (just like EPO and blood doping are not just DIY and you are donkey to racehorse). Finally, it's not like anyone is suggesting it is the tipping point, it is just one example. Could be the weakest one too.
 
How long have people been talking about ketones? I'd feel that stuff would be pretty refined by now, and it's not like 2019 had a lot of stratospheric climbing times.
This, I can see why Ketone drinks could in theory lead to much faster climbing times (riders are in ketosis/are using ketones as a source of energy earlier in the stage, the glycoge stores remain full and their powder dry so that the perfomances on the climbs are much closer to a similar length all out effort when the riders are fresh) but they have been around for some time, so such a sudden jump i a bit of a surprise.
Unless the formula has been perfected last year that can't be the only reason.
 
This, I can see why Ketone drinks could in theory lead to much faster climbing times (riders are in ketosis/are using ketones as a source of energy earlier in the stage, the glycoge stores remain full and their powder dry so that the perfomances on the climbs are much closer to a similar length all out effort when the riders are fresh) but they have been around for some time, so such a sudden jump i a bit of a surprise.
Unless the formula has been perfected last year that can't be the only reason.
To me it seems like a problem that pro teams with high budgets already heavily counter with all the nutrition and stuff, and it doesn't explain any ITT performance etc.

Seems to me like an absolutely perfect boogeyman compound. "Look at us, we don't even take ketones" because they matter *** all
 
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so the random Italian guy from Scinto's team tests positive and then the very next day VDP and Quick Step look like packfill after ripping up E3 five days earlier. now we have Stybar with a heart problem and VDP coming out and saying that he will probably suck at the Ronde. maybe it's nothing, maybe they were just holding back on Wednesday, but it's definitely strange.
 
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so the random Italian guy from Scinto's team tests positive and then the very next day VDP and Quick Step look like packfill after ripping up E3 five days earlier. now we have Stybar with a heart problem and VDP coming out and saying that he will probably suck at the Ronde. maybe it's nothing, maybe they were just holding back on Wednesday, but it's definitely strange.
How do those things have anything to do with eachother?
 
so the random Italian guy from Scinto's team tests positive and then the very next day VDP and Quick Step look like packfill after ripping up E3 five days earlier. now we have Stybar with a heart problem and VDP coming out and saying that he will probably suck at the Ronde. maybe it's nothing, maybe they were just holding back on Wednesday, but it's definitely strange.
A warning positive? Not impossible
 
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It's actually a sad state of affairs that EPO is all they're able to catch still.
Those who are stupid enough to use GW 1516 usually also get caught in mainy sports.
Yeah, and EPO positive isn't something that I'd consider a warning in this day and age. If it was Aicar or a rather new peptide like TB-500 one could argue about that one, but not with EPO in 2021.
 

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