Subpoenas issued -- Armstrong's goose is cooked

[riobonito92]

Armstrong shaping to push Bruyneel under the bus?

"It was not my company, I didn't have a position, I didn't have an equity stake, I didn't have a profit stake, I didn't have a seat on the board. I was a rider on the team. I can't be any clearer than that," Armstrong said.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-willing-to-co-operate-with-doping-investigation

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Actually he does have the right to not particpate (checkout Amendment V of the Consitution of the USA).

Not doing so is an adverse inference. Also, it is a fine line between that and Obstruction and or Contempt.

Yes, he can say "Taking the 5th" but that would be akin to saying "It is all true and I won't incriminate myself, do with me what you will."

 

[Cerberus]

Your hypothetical would not be a basis upon which you could assert your 5th Amendment rights against self-incrimination. My guess is the prosecutor would treat you as a hostile witness and go to town on you. Under the facts you've laid out.

ok I wasn't sure because it seems self-incriminatory to me (assuming the claim of involvement is true of cause), but the alleged self-incrimination is so vague. Anyway thank for answering the question.

 

[Benotti69]

I wonder what Bruyneel is thinking about now. If Armstrong denies having anything to do with managing the doping program then who has responsibility? Armstrong is attempting to man the life boats while leaving Bruyneel to go down with the ship.

wonder has bruyneel copped on to that yet.....maybe a radiosmack car with hog at the wheel will knock down uniballer yet....

as for the suggestion of wasting money. how much does the usa government blow on sending its military nosing around the world minding other peoples business. this is hardly a waste of tax payers money busting a doping ring a fraud....and possible tax evasion...

 

[Benotti69]

Armstrong denying ownership in Tailwind is interesting. He insists that the contracts will bear this out, but there are numerous other pieces of evidence indicating that he did have part ownership, including his own deposition. It looks like there was an off the books agreement. Since Tailwind was a for profit company, it is not unlikely that the agreement resulted in profits being paid to Armstrong surreptitiously..

a paper trail if found will prove he benefited from those profits, unless it went to a swiss bank account.

the swiss government should be watching this carefully, as it does not like the idea of being the dirty laundry country of the western world. i know there are other countires and islands, but there is talk of swiss bank accounts appearing in this whole case..

 

[Cerberus]

Not doing so is an adverse inference. Also, it is a fine line between that and Obstruction and or Contempt.

Yes, he can say "Taking the 5th" but that would be akin to saying "It is all true and I won't incriminate myself, do with me what you will."

Really, can adverse inference in the legal sense be drawn from taking the fifth? Obviously it's as good as an admission to the public, but are you really sure it works that way legally? It's interesting if it works like that since it makes it far more damaging to take the Fifth.

 

[Benotti69]

IIRC, they can't do anything because they failed to put a clause in the insurance policies voiding them if the wins weren't procured fairly. that's why the case was dismissed originally, because even if everything the insurance company claimed was true--i.e. that lance cheated by doping, and that without doing so he would not have won--it was a moot point because the policies only said he had to win, not how.

if LA has his wins taken from him like Riis had(IIRC) surely then the insurance compnay in question will take a case against him for the bonus and costs of the original case...

will anyone second place riders take a case against ASO if they don't declare armstrongs 7 wins nul and void.... probably not as "there by the grace god go i"....

 

[cyclestationgiuseppe]

Mark McGuire (Baseball) took the 5th in front of US congress and he is now beloved by fans across the country. NOT

If he (LA) takes the 5th, the general public will think/know he is hiding something and his reputation will be further tarnished.

Just do it!

 

[Mellow Velo]

5th Amendment? No need.
After the Tour, he'll be making a 5 year house visit at Roman Polanski's.

 

[Benotti69]

i notice that he never denied taking PEDs, long gone are the halcyon days of 'never tested positive' and 'most tested athlete in the world'.....


you wonder why TWEK have not taken uniballer off their ads and dropped 'the legacy continues'....

 

[workingclasshero]

if LA has his wins taken from him like Riis had(IIRC) surely then the insurance compnay in question will take a case against him for the bonus and costs of the original case...

will anyone second place riders take a case against ASO if they don't declare armstrongs 7 wins nul and void.... probably not as "there by the grace god go i"....

http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/HISTO/us/palmares.html

i'm afraid riis still is the winner officially

 

[Benotti69]

5th Amendment? No need.
After the Tour, he'll be making a 5 year house visit at Roman Polanski's.

Ya think, not sure the Swiss want a doper......but an artist well that's different.

 

[Benotti69]

http://www.letour.fr/2010/TDF/HISTO/us/palmares.html

i'm afraid riis still is the winner officially

well ASO deserve a kicking....

 

[DAOTEC]

Origanally Posted by riobonito92> Armstrong shaping to push Bruyneel under the bus?

"It was not my company, I didn't have a position, I didn't have an equity stake, I didn't have a profit stake, I didn't have a seat on the board. I was a rider on the team. I can't be any clearer than that," Armstrong said.

Yeap that's what he is doing ... digging a hole for manneke pies ...

This is how the French look at it

 

[kurtinsc]

Really, can adverse inference in the legal sense be drawn from taking the fifth? Obviously it's as good as an admission to the public, but are you really sure it works that way legally? It's interesting if it works like that since it makes it far more damaging to take the Fifth.

Often, the way they get people who are taking the 5th is to grant them immunity from the subject they are being questioned on. Then they are no longer allowed to take the 5th... because they are immune from incrimination... they've got a pass.

If they do this... here are the potential results.

1. Lance says he didn't dope. If he is lying, he may be open to perjury charges later.

2. Lance spills the beans. He doesn't ever get charged... but his legacy is shot. If he ever said he didn't dope in a previous court case under oath, he can go to jail for lying in THAT court case.

3. Lance refuses to say anything, and get's hit with contempt... because he no longer has the right to say nothing.

 

[Cobblestones]

I know there are some differences, the most important being that in Denmark you cannot be charged with perjury in you own defence. you can lie through your teeth as long as you're a suspect.

Yes, that is true.

Now the thing is, when you're a witness (not a suspect), I think in Denmark too, you have something like 'to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. That, I think, is pretty universal.

The difference between Denmark and US might be when you're witnessing in your own defense.

 

[kurtinsc]

Yes, that is true.

Now the thing is, when you're a witness (not a suspect), I think in Denmark too, you have something like 'to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. That, I think, is pretty universal.

The difference between Denmark and US might be when you're witnessing in your own defense.

In the US you have the right to not make statements that would incriminate yourself. YOu don't have the right to lie in your own defense though.

On the other hand, if the government grants you immunity from being charged based on your testimony, then you cant' take the 5th even... because you can't incriminate yourself. You are legally required to talk... and if you're caught in a lie you'll get charged for perjuring yourself.

The abiltiy to take the 5th to avoid self incrimination is for any sworn statement though... regardless of who's being charged. If you bought drugs from a dealer and they were going after the dealer... you'd be able to take the 5th because telling them what happened would result in incriminating yourself in the crime... again unless they gave immunity to you (or a plea bargain).

 

[Cobblestones]

In the US you have the right to not make statements that would incriminate yourself. YOu don't have the right to lie in your own defense though.

On the other hand, if the government grants you immunity from being charged based on your testimony, then you cant' take the 5th even... because you can't incriminate yourself. You are legally required to talk... and if you're caught in a lie you'll get charged for perjuring yourself.

The abiltiy to take the 5th to avoid self incrimination is for any sworn statement though... regardless of who's being charged. If you bought drugs from a dealer and they were going after the dealer... you'd be able to take the 5th because telling them what happened would result in incriminating yourself in the crime... again unless they gave immunity to you (or a plea bargain).

Yes to all of that. But I think the difference is when you get yourself in the witness stand as a suspect, in Denmark you can still lie without repercussions, in the US, not so much.

ETA: anyway, maybe we should go on topic again and forget about the Danish legal system.

 

[euanli]

given the leaked emails just revealed by CN, Landis is looking less and less like the looney he is being made out to be by the people he implicated

 

[Desperate Moments]

When you refuse to answer questions about someone related to the probe, you can go to jail for contempt of court. That is what happened to Barry Bonds trainer Greg Anderson.

Don't think Hincapie, Hamilton, Vaughters and others would willingly risk jail. Lance is going to need to coordinate all their actions to avoid them speaking out. Find it hard to believe he can do it.

Another weapon in the prosecutors' arsenal is a grant of immunity, thereby removing the possibility that anything a witness says under oath might tend to incriminate them. Also, you can't take the 5th just because you don't want to answer the question. If you do not have a reasonable expectation that any evidence you are asked to give might tend to incriminate you and you refuse to answer on grounds of self-incrimination, that is perjury also--though hard to prove.

 

[Anonymous]

By the same logic, it's not up to the teammate/competitor to tell what they know about Armstrong either.

If I was doping also, with his help, and a Federal investigator asked me, that is a completely different situation.

 

[Cerberus]

Yes, that is true.

Now the thing is, when you're a witness (not a suspect), I think in Denmark too, you have something like 'to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth'. That, I think, is pretty universal.

The difference between Denmark and US might be when you're witnessing in your own defense.

Obviously yes, it would be a pretty ****ed up system that allowed witnesses to just make stuff up and get away with it. I doubt there's ever been a legal system that didn't punish perjury. Though if you lied while considered a witness but was later "upgraded" to a suspect the protection works retroactively.

 

[Mach Schnell]

Man, what is it with you guys and doping/LA??
Who cares?? All I see are a bunch of bitter ex-Posties who got caught and want to spread the love around. Did LA dope? Well, he's never tested positive in any controls, so innocent until proven guilty. And really, in the end, does it matter? No, not one bit. Every one of his past rivals has been caught or implicated in doping, so its not like that even if he was doping, he was doing anything they weren't doing. He was just smarter.
Oh but wait, LA wasn't a nice guy, he was mean Again, so what? Want a list of other mean TDF winners since the race began?
This is all a huge waste of time and money. Let 'em dope. "Cheating" in sports is all a huge grey area anyway. If a person has more money than you and can afford a better coach, is that cheating? Whats racing "clean" anyways? Crazy how many pro riders all have "asthma"
Am I a LA fan? No way, hes kind of like white trash from Texas gone racing. How many kids with different mothers does he have? But again, so what. I still like watching the guy race. I see lots of guys who hate LA love Jan, but he doped, isn't that kind of hypocritical? Maybe just a bit??
The Powers That Be should just stop bothering with it all, and let them go wild. You will never, ever stop doping/cheating. Even if you had a "clean" peloton, there will always be someone willing to do what it takes to win, regardless. So then the playing field is unequal once again.
If you have doctor supervision, and do it right, under controlled coditions, doping isn't going to hurt you any more than many of the other substances we get exposed to, so lets legalize doping, and let the pros take it safely.
So there. Hows that?
Flame away. I can handle it

 

[Big Doopie]

given the leaked emails just revealed by CN, Landis is looking less and less like the looney he is being made out to be by the people he implicated

those emails are great. landis seems so clear in his mind. like with the espn interview. so relieved to finally be telling the truth. and he's funny with his tongue and cheek remarks. meanwhile verdruggen seems desperate and...sweaty...

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

Man, what is it with you guys and doping/LA??
Who cares??

Your vision in this matter can best be described by the picture below.