Subpoenas issued -- Armstrong's goose is cooked

[Indurain]

Not Apples to Apples, Dallas.

Lance was 24 and Big Mig was 31.

A 24 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 24 year old Big Mig.
A 31 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 31 year old Big Mig.
Heck, Lance was faster than Big Mig when both were 15 and 39 too.
And Lance was always a better climber than Big Mig.

But dont get me wrong - I think Big Mig is awesome.
One of my all time favorite riders.
Lance is simply better. Big Mig would agree.

Show me your evidence of this
In the 1987 TdF Indurain was always in the lead in the timetrials (including uphill ones) until the favourites came through. Not sure how old he was then, but wasn't too old. I never ever saw Armstrong in the top 10 prior to cancer.

Indurain won Mountain stages in 89 and 90. When did Armstrong ever win a mountain stage prior to his cancer.

Without dope, Indurain was the more talented rider by far, in all disciplines. Hell Indurain could even sprint with the best if he wanted to. Saw him in one of his Giro's lead out and still keep up with the sprinters.

 

[D-Queued]

Show me your evidence of this
...

Indurain won Mountain stages in 89 and 90. When did Armstrong ever win a mountain stage prior to his cancer.

....

As soon as the Tour hit the slopes, Armstrong would be on the next flight home with some BS excuse about not being old enough. Tell that one to Eddy Merckx and his collection of all the Jerseys.

For those of us counting on the next US hope at the time, the repeat flatlander performances from 1993-1996 were very discouraging.

Then he is challenging for the record on the Alpe? Excuse me?

At 24, in his first Tour (he won the Giro the previous year), this is how Merckx performed:

He won the general classification (yellow jersey), points classification (green jersey) and the mountains classification (and would have taken the White Jersey as well had there been one). No other rider has achieved this triple in the Tour de France, and only Tony Rominger and Laurent Jalabert have matched it in any grand tour[n 4] Merckx also won the combination classification and the combativity award. Merckx led the race from stage six to twenty-two. His 17 minute 54 second margin of victory over second-placed Roger Pingeon has never been matched since.

Now that is a real cyclist.

Dave.

 

[jimmypop]

Now that is a real cyclist.

Dave.

How's that for holiday spirit! DQ brings the gift of a smackdown.

 

[washedup]

I am so worn out by endless comparisons of current day stars and past legends. In reality, we should look at the timeline and what we know of the progression of doping.

We all know when the real sh!t hit the fan, and we know when the diarrhea hit the jet engine.

We sit here, fighting for our man-crushes, when in reality... it has been years since we have had a true star. Instead, we have athletes dying and being forced to make decisions about ethics and safety to be successful.

Indurain, Armstrong, Ullrich, Pattani, Landis, Contador, Schlecks and etc. have all perpetuated the perceived, if not actual, need to dope. They have created not only a selfish internal culture, but also an environment which necessitates a need to dope for survival.


All of these guys are frauds, so we should stop fighting about who was better.



If anything, LA is, in my opinion, a bigger liar since he raced in a generation that was 'publicly conscious' of the problem of dope..... and even at times used it to his advantage.


Sadly, the best heroes are the guys who make the best choices. The types of guys who could be a real role model to our sons. These guys can't allow themselves to make the decision Armstrong and other 'global stars' have made.

 

[Indurain]

I agree re: Armstrong doping when there was a real fight against doping, however, is there actually a winner that didn't seek an advantage in some way, doping or otherwise?

I would think every winner of the Tour has sought an unfair advantage in one way or another. Whether it was the magical island plant or epo, their intent was all the same.

 

[sniper]

I would think every winner of the Tour has sought an unfair advantage in one way or another. Whether it was the magical island plant or epo, their intent was all the same.

that is beyond reasonable doubt.

 

[Dallas_]

I am so worn out by endless comparisons of current day stars and past legends. In reality, we should look at the timeline and what we know of the progression of doping.

We all know when the real sh!t hit the fan, and we know when the diarrhea hit the jet engine.

We sit here, fighting for our man-crushes, when in reality... it has been years since we have had a true star. Instead, we have athletes dying and being forced to make decisions about ethics and safety to be successful.

Indurain, Armstrong, Ullrich, Pattani, Landis, Contador, Schlecks and etc. have all perpetuated the perceived, if not actual, need to dope. They have created not only a selfish internal culture, but also an environment which necessitates a need to dope for survival.


All of these guys are frauds, so we should stop fighting about who was better.



If anything, LA is, in my opinion, a bigger liar since he raced in a generation that was 'publicly conscious' of the problem of dope..... and even at times used it to his advantage.


Sadly, the best heroes are the guys who make the best choices. The types of guys who could be a real role model to our sons. These guys can't allow themselves to make the decision Armstrong and other 'global stars' have made.

la's goose is cooked and his public image will never return to previous heights. He is very concerned about his public persona - hens internet cleansing.

From my perspective washedup, I was NOT "publicly conscious of the problem of doping" at any time, let alone the la era. On TV, I watched all miracle boys tdf's and viewed Marion's wins at the 2000 Olympics - totally clueless. Had read about various doping cases eg Ben Johnson, Festina affair and various athletes.

Enter the INTERNET. Without the internet and the clinic, I probably would still not have a comprehension of the magnitude of the problem in most professional sports!

Good points in your last paragraph

cheers to all