Subpoenas issued -- Armstrong's goose is cooked

[WonderLance]

My support would be the surest way for you not to become a moderator.

I do like the idea, though. My prayers to the Flying Spaghetti Monster for your speedy ascendency to the moderator team are forthcoming.

I dont like Pirates.

I also eat gluten free.

 

[ChrisE]

I dont like Pirates.

I also eat gluten free.

OK then. May you go the the FSM hell that is infested with stale beer fountains and diseased strippers. I withdraw my support for you to be on the moderator team.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Perhaps you will help me in my campaign to become a moderator in this forum.

My support would be the surest way for you not to become a moderator.

..........

 

[Page Mill Masochist]

I think it will rank evenly with the other drugged cyclists who've won GT's in the EPO era.

So essentially everyone since 1991-1993.

Not really. LA had a mediocre VO2 max (for world class athletes) and got a disproportionate boost from EPO and transfusions.

Any rational guess is that LA would have won, at best, a few TdFs if everyone had been clean. Possibly none. We'll never know.

Drugs allowed LA to avoid the one bad day that destroys a rider's in a GT.

 

[WonderLance]

..........

Why you gotta hate on me Alp? I dont try and crush your dreams.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Actually Wonder, I love ya man. You're my favorite Lance fan by far. You have unbridled enthusiasm and never ending admiration for your hero, and your goal here is indeed a lofty one. Don't let the occasional smart remark from me let you down. And if I'm stepping on your feelers, I apologize.

But there's a problem you see, if we make you a mod, then we have to make Chris E a mod as well. You know, to balance things out and all. And the general consensus is that it just wouldn't be a good idea.

But by all means, don't let me stop you in your campaign. Just as Lance will never stop the good fight against allegations of doping, even as it turns out to be a Mt. Ventoux sized pile of evidence, I fully expect you to continue your dream to be a mod here with the same spirit.

 

[kurtinsc]

Not really. LA had a mediocre VO2 max (for world class athletes) and got a disproportionate boost from EPO and transfusions.

Any rational guess is that LA would have won, at best, a few TdFs if everyone had been clean. Possibly none. We'll never know.

Drugs allowed LA to avoid the one bad day that destroys a rider's in a GT.

I'm not sure I wan't to know the answer to this question if it gets too technical... but why would a rider with a lower VO2 max get more of a benefit from EPO and Transfusions?

Something just sounds backwards about that... almost like saying that a rider who had worse fitness/talent before drugs would turn into a better rider after drugs then one who was super-talented going in.

I'm sorry... I just don't buy that. I don't care what you pumped into my body... even when I was 2% body fat in my prime swimming days, I'd never have been able to be a good cyclist. I can buy that he might have had a better program... but not that a more talented rider on an equal program would have had worse results. That just doesn't make much sense to my admittedly not-expert understanding of doping.

 

[Ferminal]

I'm not sure I wan't to know the answer to this question if it gets too technical... but why would a rider with a lower VO2 max get more of a benefit from EPO and Transfusions?

Something just sounds backwards about that... almost like saying that a rider who had worse fitness/talent before drugs would turn into a better rider after drugs then one who was super-talented going in.

I'm sorry... I just don't buy that. I don't care what you pumped into my body... even when I was 2% body fat in my prime swimming days, I'd never have been able to be a good cyclist. I can buy that he might have had a better program... but not that a more talented rider on an equal program would have had worse results. That just doesn't make much sense to my admittedly not-expert understanding of doping.

More room to gain?

I doubt the relationship is linear.

 

[Oldman]

I'm not sure I wan't to know the answer to this question if it gets too technical... but why would a rider with a lower VO2 max get more of a benefit from EPO and Transfusions?

Something just sounds backwards about that... almost like saying that a rider who had worse fitness/talent before drugs would turn into a better rider after drugs then one who was super-talented going in.

I'm sorry... I just don't buy that. I don't care what you pumped into my body... even when I was 2% body fat in my prime swimming days, I'd never have been able to be a good cyclist. I can buy that he might have had a better program... but not that a more talented rider on an equal program would have had worse results. That just doesn't make much sense to my admittedly not-expert understanding of doping.

Fans and non-fans have to acknowledge that Lance had some natural strength and endurance displayed in his early Tri days. What he has gained since the cancer days is the knowledge of capitalizing on that initial genetic advantage, developing it and training his weaknesses. All GT "naturals" had the ability to avoid illness, recover from effort and endure a variety of conditions. It's clear that consulting doctors starting before Conconi and Ferrari understood if there was a shortcut to those improving those basic elements you'd have a great rider if you started with a good one. As the knowledge increased in the medical field the arms race was on. Teams with better doctors got better results and cycling history of the last two decades is full of glaring team examples, if not individuals. Team: Gewiess Individual: Chiappucci.
Lance would not have won a Tour clean as his pedigree never hinted on more than a week of competitive intensity.

 

[Polish]

Lance would not have won a Tour clean as his pedigree never hinted on more than a week of competitive intensity.

That bolded (by me) hypothesis does NOT hold water.
Leaky assertion, full of holes.
Hope you brought a change of clothes, as you are all wet.

First, you are pitting "Clean Lance" against a cadre of Doped GC Dangermen.
Could a "Clean Anybody" have won a Tour against those dopers?

Second, and this is where your claim really starts dripping profusely, is when you imply that Doping Transformed a "non-pedigree" Lance into a SEVEN Time Winner. Didn't happen. Couldn't happen.

Sure, doping can help transform a great rider into a single tour winner.
Think Riis, Ullrich, Pantani, Roche, Delgado, Zoetemelk.

And yes, Doping can assist great riders who would have won the Tour anyway. Think Eddy, Big Mig, Jaques, Lance, and sooo many others.

But to argue that Doping transformed a non-pedigree Lance into a 7 time in a row TdF winner is silly. Silly that others agree with you too. Super Silly.
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.
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[mortailcoil]

You've got the wrong end of the stick. Oldman was suggesting more towards the team effort and backoffice team support..

 

[Berzin]

Polish-that is the power embodied by the true believers-drink the swill and repeat the mantras in the little yellow prayer book until the reality you so desperately want others to believe becomes so-but only in your head.

 

[Polish]

You've got the wrong end of the stick. Oldman was suggesting more towards the team effort and backoffice team support..

Oh, you mean that some of Lance's contemporaries, if given the same "team effort" and "backoffice support", could have won seven or more TdF's?
Maybe oldman could have been a contender?

That end of the stick?

That is the "fantasy end" of the stick. A magic wand.

 

[mortailcoil]

You are overposting. The result is you are producing claptrap rubbish.

Read the f*ing post/thread.

 

[henryg]

But to argue that Doping transformed a non-pedigree Lance into a 7 time in a row TdF winner is silly. Silly that others agree with you too. Super Silly.
.
.
.

From the 90's we know who the riders were who responded best to EPO, had the best doping programs and had the most inside knowledge whether by bribery or other means of the testing authorities. What we don't know and will ever know is who where the best cyclists.

EPO when given the constraints of avoiding a positive test affects different athletes differently. Everyone does not get the same boost. So would the top 5 been the same in an EPO free peloton? Some of the top riders may have been only second tier in a drug free world. There is no way to get a clean do over so there is no way to know whether Lance would have won 7, 1 or none in an EPO free peloton.

 

[Polish]

Polish-that is the power embodied by the true believers-drink the swill and repeat the mantras in the little yellow prayer book until the reality you so desperately want others to believe becomes so-but only in your head.

Berzin, you're just mad because Berzin could not win a Tour - even on EPO.
And he was such an inelegant pedaler too

You are overposting. The result is you are producing claptrap rubbish.

Read the f*ing post/thread.

Sorry mortailcoil. I'm just posting fanboy drivel. Seriously.
I apologize. You may want to put me on "ignore" though.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

And yes, Doping can assist great riders who would have won the Tour anyway. Think Eddy, Big Mig, Jaques, Lance, and sooo many others.

But to argue that Doping transformed a non-pedigree Lance into a 7 time in a row TdF winner is silly. Silly that others agree with you too. Super Silly.
.
.
.

The riders you mention already showed a GC pedigree at a young age. Before cancer, Armstrong showed ZERO promise as a GC contender. Zero.

There's little doubt that he was an excellent cyclist. He was a world champion at age 21. But to say that he showed promise as a GC rider is sheer mendacity.

 

[D Avoid]

You might be able to be a poor man's Virginia Woolf if you keep practicing writing like that.

No practice involved.

Though your inability to undermine the mind of greater understanding is explicitly revealed by your association of that great mind with a woman who could not decide how to fit her anatomy to her name. You stray to deep for the deep ship to protex you.

 

[Oldman]

The riders you mention already showed a GC pedigree at a young age. Before cancer, Armstrong showed ZERO promise as a GC contender. Zero.

There's little doubt that he was an excellent cyclist. He was a world champion at age 21. But to say that he showed promise as a GC rider is sheer mendacity.

Moose-Polish doesn't believe it, either and there is a shred of truth in his hammy analogy; albeit an apologist's truth. I didn't presuppose that all contenders would be clean but I won't open the door for LA's enhanced wins in Polish's maleable support for Tex. Lance wouldn't fare any better in any of his Tours than this one and he had full support, however wasted.

 

[Dallas_]

The riders you mention already showed a GC pedigree at a young age. Before cancer, Armstrong showed ZERO promise as a GC contender. Zero.

There's little doubt that he was an excellent cyclist. He was a world champion at age 21. But to say that he showed promise as a GC rider is sheer mendacity.

I am not patronizing you MooseMcKnuckles, but your post is pure class ie top notch. In fact, I will say the best ever post about miracle boy in the clinic.

on topic of "armstrong's goose is cooked" - in my opinion the goose is and will be overcooked ie "burnt to a crisp"
Sometime in 2011, Novitzky will lay his cards on the table. To repeat myself "the truth is always beautiful"

two links with a little intrinsic evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CUqND8BR8&feature=related

cheers to all

 

[sniper]

I am not patronizing you MooseMcKnuckles, but your post is pure class ie top notch. In fact, I will say the best ever post about miracle boy in the clinic.

on topic of "armstrong's goose is cooked" - in my opinion the goose is and will be overcooked ie "burnt to a crisp"
Sometime in 2011, Novitzky will lay his cards on the table. To repeat myself "the truth is always beautiful"

two links with a little intrinsic evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CUqND8BR8&feature=related

cheers to all

Lovely piece of documentary evidence.

He did have charisma, gotta hand it to him.
But the guy's got the words "I'm a lying sack of ...." written all over his face, seriously. And that's an objective observation.

And yeah, his goose-balls are roasted.

 

[thehog]

Lovely piece of documentary evidence.

He did have charisma, gotta hand it to him.
But the guy's got the words "I'm a lying sack of ...." written all over his face, seriously. And that's an objective observation.

And yeah, his goose-balls are roasted.

Bar Ullrich he smashed that field by 3+ minutes. Just not possible. He really did ruin the race.

and poor Jan. Must shake his head at it all.

 

[Polish]

two links with a little intrinsic evidence:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HmR9k8UAohs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4CUqND8BR8&feature=related

cheers to all

Not Apples to Apples, Dallas.

Lance was 24 and Big Mig was 31.

A 24 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 24 year old Big Mig.
A 31 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 31 year old Big Mig.
Heck, Lance was faster than Big Mig when both were 15 and 39 too.
And Lance was always a better climber than Big Mig.

But dont get me wrong - I think Big Mig is awesome.
One of my all time favorite riders.
Lance is simply better. Big Mig would agree.

 

[sniper]

Not Apples to Apples, Dallas.

Lance was 24 and Big Mig was 31.

A 24 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 24 year old Big Mig.
A 31 year old Lance was faster in the TT than a 31 year old Big Mig.
Heck, Lance was faster than Big Mig when both were 15 and 39 too.
And Lance was always a better climber than Big Mig.

But dont get me wrong - I think Big Mig is awesome.
One of my all time favorite riders.
Lance is simply better. Big Mig would agree.

True. I think though, that Armstrong has always been much more aware of his cheating. I think Indurain just took the dope, without really thinking deeper about whether or not that meant cheating. If you look at the footage, the LA interviews after the race, LA's got this look on his face, as if he's saying: "you dumb s.ckers, I got you fooled allright".

 

[MarkvW]

Poor Jan!

Bar Ullrich he smashed that field by 3+ minutes. Just not possible. He really did ruin the race.

and poor Jan. Must shake his head at it all.

Poor Jan? What about poor Lance? What about the extra-demanding--and highly criticized--training program that poor Lance had to endure just to compete with that bad, bad doper Jan Ullrich?