Success in anti-doping

[djconnel]

Positive signs doping is reduced. First, the French start winning races again. Now the Colombians....

The Colombians' altitude advantage was pretty much erased in the EPO era, most notably first evident in the 1995 World Championship, held there but where the Swiss, for example, appeared remarkably "acclimated".

 

[Anonymous]

Well, there is the problem TFF.

Too many 'anti-dopers' are so utterly convinced that they no longer even care to look at evidence.

I will say it again, so the rabid personal trolling is put in place, I do not care whether LA or any other rider is doping or not. What I care about is that we use a systemic AND SUCCESSFUL system to nail the guys with evidence that leads to actual sanction.

I think we all want that. It hasn't happened yet, but yea, we all want a successful system.

..... rather than just press leaks, innuendo, and insinuation.

Talk about unrealistic expectations and banging your head against a wall. Do you ever read the suggestions you give others for clues about how you might act?

What got DiLuca? The biopass port anomolies and targeted testing and retesting resulting in a positive test. done.

What got Valverde? Basso? His DNA in a blood bag. done.

What got FL? A positive test for synthetic testosterone. done.

What broke the Festina Affair? Customs officials finding a car full of dope. done.

Show me the system in that. That is a list of disjointed exceptions to the rule conducted by various organizations who rarely if ever work together. Yea, great SYSTEM you have there...

What has failed to get LA since 1999? Press leaks, innuendo, etc.

What failed to get Armstrong is the same SYSTEM that failed to get Pantani, Ulrich, and many MANY others who "never tested positive."

IF LA is finally nailed because law enforcement builds a solid case against him, that will only prove me right. The UCI, et al. cannot do anything without evidence. Period.

The UCI is doing nothing in this except covering its a$$. IF anything happens it will have nothing to do with the efforts of the GOVERNING BODY for cycling. Kinda sad, but it seems to be the SYSTEM you prefer. Heck, Fat McQuaid has already declared case closed on it, so... (starting to see the pattern?)

You inability to separate methodology from desired results is a problem. Please though, spare us the emotionalism, prejorative accusations, and insults when banging your head against a brick wall for a decade doesn't produce the desired result.

Your SYSTEM has yet to produce the desired result. It has just kicked the can down the road and declared victory on several occasions. I am not banging my head against anything. I am merely looking realistically at the results this SYSTEM of which you speak has produced, and I have to say that it is pretty pi$$ poor by any measure.

It really shouldn't be that difficult after a decade of failure to hear someone say, "stop banging your head into that wall and try going over the wall instead." One way will get you past the wall, the other will not.

I haven't failed at anything involved in this. I don't dope. I don't ride professionally. I am not in charge of anti-doping efforts. I have never knocked on any riders door and asked for some pi$$ and blood. I have no responsibility what-so-ever for the failure or success of the system other than to use my purchasing power in terms of sponsors. I freely admit that I still watch a sport I know is filled with doping. Hey, we all have our hypocrisies.

However, and bearing in mind that I have no vested interest in LA one way or the other, what happens if said investigation fails to produce anything on LA/JB?

How long is a piece of string?

They are accused of the exact same bahavior as the 'minor' team that started this thread, so why can't we produce the same result with major teams using the same thing?

Oh, I don't know...the power of money in regards to its use in influencing anything? Just a wild accusation with no relevant examples of any kind over the history of mankind......no wait...history is full of examples...

Is it because the Gendarmerie are hopelessly incompitent and corrupt?

ibid

Again, the predictive idea (for which I fully acknowledge a great deal of circumstantial evidence) says that certain systems should be in place and can be found. So find them TFF and all your dreams will come true.

You are the one with this whole unified SYSTEM in place that has been so successful and only busted the few who have actually doped. If your measure is to look at the positives and penalties handed out and say "hey the SYSTEM is working and obviously all these other insinuations, accusations, and rumors are obviously baseless because if they were true the people would have been caught" then I guess the rose tint on your glasses causes you no difficulty.

The reality is different however, and even a blind man can see that. You? Not so much.

 

[gree0232]

Once again, who is chastising the UCI for failing to act like a police agency?

There is a big difference between pointing out that a police bust is not successful UCI anti-doping action and chastising UCI for not behaving like police. Why are you ignoring this difference?



You don't care whether athletes are doping, which may be affecting their health, you just care whether people get caught.

There is really no need to badger the message board with this view; it's not like we haven't heard it all before.

Why do so many 'anti-doping' posters make so many assumptions about anyone and everyone who disagrees with them?

And therein lies the point that I have been making, assumptions based on a total lack of evidence and based largely in emotion are not only usually wrong, they will never, ever result in anything productive in the anti-doping front.

So, let's start from the top.

1. Why don't I care about whether a cyclist is doped? To remain objective. There is no sport anywhere that is free of doping. None. So why would I, or anyone for that matter, drive themselves bonkers speculating about whether or not individual riders are doped based on .... hand movements, performance, or leaked comments often anonymous comments?

It comes down to something very simple: people are convicted of crimes (which is what doping is) based on evidence and not my personal like or dislike of a rider. The evidence or lack thereof is what determines whether someone is doped. In the meantime, and in accordance with most legal systems, the presumption is of innocence ... and the burden of overturning that assumption lies with the accusser.

2. You don't care about the health of riders! Sure. There is, and always will be a game afoot. There will always be riders, or athletes in any sport, that will attempt to find ways to cheat. There will always be those who seek to expose these cheats (in any sport). Acknowledging that reality and the burden required to 'win' in that game is hardly a statement about riders health.

In fact, (if you doubt me, ask Colm), the level of sophistication in doping is now apparently so high, that medical help is required to administer the blood with proper dosages of EPO to maintain the integrity of the blood rather than trip the tests. Additionally, there are team doctors that watch the riders and can, and will, intervene if something gets too far out of whack.

And despite all this, there are still athletes (in any sport) who will risk their health and try dangerous drugs to achieve marginal benefits that will put them over the top and give them their moment of glory. It is the difference between anonymity and stardom, and some people will risk anything for that moment of glory.

That would be why we need effective anti-doping systems to prevent that risk, and why baseless assumptions are not, and never will be, an effective addition to the tool kit of anti-doping and criminal prosecution.

 

[gree0232]

I think we all want that. It hasn't happened yet, but yea, we all want a successful system.



Talk about unrealistic expectations and banging your head against a wall. Do you ever read the suggestions you give others for clues about how you might act?




Show me the system in that. That is a list of disjointed exceptions to the rule conducted by various organizations who rarely if ever work together. Yea, great SYSTEM you have there...




What failed to get Armstrong is the same SYSTEM that failed to get Pantani, Ulrich, and many MANY others who "never tested positive."




The UCI is doing nothing in this except covering its a$$. IF anything happens it will have nothing to do with the efforts of the GOVERNING BODY for cycling. Kinda sad, but it seems to be the SYSTEM you prefer. Heck, Fat McQuaid has already declared case closed on it, so... (starting to see the pattern?)




Your SYSTEM has yet to produce the desired result. It has just kicked the can down the road and declared victory on several occasions. I am not banging my head against anything. I am merely looking realistically at the results this SYSTEM of which you speak has produced, and I have to say that it is pretty pi$$ poor by any measure.




I haven't failed at anything involved in this. I don't dope. I don't ride professionally. I am not in charge of anti-doping efforts. I have never knocked on any riders door and asked for some pi$$ and blood. I have no responsibility what-so-ever for the failure or success of the system other than to use my purchasing power in terms of sponsors. I freely admit that I still watch a sport I know is filled with doping. Hey, we all have our hypocrisies.




How long is a piece of string?




Oh, I don't know...the power of money in regards to its use in influencing anything? Just a wild accusation with no relevant examples of any kind over the history of mankind......no wait...history is full of examples...




ibid




You are the one with this whole unified SYSTEM in place that has been so successful and only busted the few who have actually doped. If your measure is to look at the positives and penalties handed out and say "hey the SYSTEM is working and obviously all these other insinuations, accusations, and rumors are obviously baseless because if they were true the people would have been caught" then I guess the rose tint on your glasses causes you no difficulty.

The reality is different however, and even a blind man can see that. You? Not so much.

Let me again make it clear for you TFF.

Greg Lemond has been going after LA for the better part of a decade. Has that resulted in any kind of sporting sanction? Have the insinuations sans evidence actually come back to hurt GL in terms of lost sales for his bike brand and the sundering of ties with Trek?

Yep, he could be exactly right, but in terms of fighting doping he has had absolutely zero effect.

Floyd's accusations, we are still determining whether they will be effective. The public accusations have clearly not resulted in anything, though, and as I have long said, they could be part of an effort to shake loose the evidence needed to convict. It could also be about simple revenge. If it shakes loose something, good. If not, just one more public accusation that will never result in anything but arosed emotions. In the end, Floyd need evidence to back up his claims, and that evidence either comes or it doesn't.

In the meantime, please bear in mind that the same legal systems that bring down smuggling operations across Europe and North America (where there is FAR more money involved) are the same agencies that are charged with finding the evidence that you and others predict should be there - yet for some reason cannot seem to find. Curious.

It would be nice not to see the ready made excuses for failure (corruption, power of money, shi'te system, etc.). Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there are rules that must be followed in the system. Thus far, you, and others, refuse to referrence these rules or advocate solutions that will yield results -- the results that you desire. Either your convictions can meet the minimum standards REQUIRED by the system or they cannot.

Again, why are riders like DiLuca sanctioned? Why are riders like Levi not sanctioned? The proof is quite literally the pudding in this case.

So, rather than bemoan the lack of desired results and make sweeping generalizations of inadaquacy, what would you recommend the SYSTEM do to be MORE effective at reaching the hurdles required?

Critics are a dime a dozen, problem solvers ... much more difficult.

BTW, it is no longer the late 1990's where there is no test for EPO. If your criticism rests entirely on that period, then your recommended solutions would already be in place - find an EPO test.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Why do so many 'anti-doping' posters make so many assumptions about anyone and everyone who disagrees with them?

And therein lies the point that I have been making, assumptions based on a total lack of evidence and based largely in emotion are not only usually wrong, they will never, ever result in anything productive in the anti-doping front.

<snipped for brevity>

That would be why we need effective anti-doping systems to prevent that risk, and why baseless assumptions are not, and never will be, an effective addition to the tool kit of anti-doping and criminal prosecution.

So, if you don't like people making 'assumptions' then why have you assumed the Italian team is doped???

None of the riders have been prosecuted - nor indeed has their coach who thus far is the only one named.

And remember he said he only brought some vitamins in case they needed them!!!

Why are you using 'innuendo, rumor, and baseless assumptions, with no preponderance of evidence against an innocent (in a Court of whatever tickles you today).

 

[Colm.Murphy]

Why do so many 'anti-doping' posters make so many assumptions about anyone and everyone who disagrees with them?

And therein lies the point that I have been making, assumptions based on a total lack of evidence and based largely in emotion are not only usually wrong, they will never, ever result in anything productive in the anti-doping front.

So, let's start from the top.

1. Why don't I care about whether a cyclist is doped? To remain objective. There is no sport anywhere that is free of doping. None. So why would I, or anyone for that matter, drive themselves bonkers speculating about whether or not individual riders are doped based on .... hand movements, performance, or leaked comments often anonymous comments?

It comes down to something very simple: people are convicted of crimes (which is what doping is) based on evidence and not my personal like or dislike of a rider. The evidence or lack thereof is what determines whether someone is doped. In the meantime, and in accordance with most legal systems, the presumption is of innocence ... and the burden of overturning that assumption lies with the accusser.

2. You don't care about the health of riders! Sure. There is, and always will be a game afoot. There will always be riders, or athletes in any sport, that will attempt to find ways to cheat. There will always be those who seek to expose these cheats (in any sport). Acknowledging that reality and the burden required to 'win' in that game is hardly a statement about riders health.

In fact, (if you doubt me, ask Colm), the level of sophistication in doping is now apparently so high, that medical help is required to administer the blood with proper dosages of EPO to maintain the integrity of the blood rather than trip the tests. Additionally, there are team doctors that watch the riders and can, and will, intervene if something gets too far out of whack.

And despite all this, there are still athletes (in any sport) who will risk their health and try dangerous drugs to achieve marginal benefits that will put them over the top and give them their moment of glory. It is the difference between anonymity and stardom, and some people will risk anything for that moment of glory.

That would be why we need effective anti-doping systems to prevent that risk, and why baseless assumptions are not, and never will be, an effective addition to the tool kit of anti-doping and criminal prosecution.

You seem to think re-, re-, re-explaining yourself makes anyone care. You are simply barking at a wall at this point.

"Take it from the top"?...spare us the exercise. And don't drag my name into the ditch you've dug. It took me repeated posts just so you could understand the level of the doping that exists, don't present it as if you've known.

You've so twisted and convoluted what you've meant since you started floundering about here, there is no "clarification" that can make sense of your ridiculousness.

You still think the majority of assumptions are baseless, FFS.

I honestly went back and forth about posting in response to you, and was going to forgo it had my name not been popped into your regurgitation.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Let me again make it clear for you TFF.

Greg Lemond has been going after LA for the better part of a decade. Has that resulted in any kind of sporting sanction? Have the insinuations sans evidence actually come back to hurt GL in terms of lost sales for his bike brand and the sundering of ties with Trek?

Yep, he could be exactly right, but in terms of fighting doping he has had absolutely zero effect.

Floyd's accusations, we are still determining whether they will be effective. The public accusations have clearly not resulted in anything, though, and as I have long said, they could be part of an effort to shake loose the evidence needed to convict. It could also be about simple revenge. If it shakes loose something, good. If not, just one more public accusation that will never result in anything but arosed emotions. In the end, Floyd need evidence to back up his claims, and that evidence either comes or it doesn't.

In the meantime, please bear in mind that the same legal systems that bring down smuggling operations across Europe and North America (where there is FAR more money involved) are the same agencies that are charged with finding the evidence that you and others predict should be there - yet for some reason cannot seem to find. Curious.

It would be nice not to see the ready made excuses for failure (corruption, power of money, shi'te system, etc.). Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there are rules that must be followed in the system. Thus far, you, and others, refuse to referrence these rules or advocate solutions that will yield results -- the results that you desire. Either your convictions can meet the minimum standards REQUIRED by the system or they cannot.

Again, why are riders like DiLuca sanctioned? Why are riders like Levi not sanctioned? The proof is quite literally the pudding in this case.

So, rather than bemoan the lack of desired results and make sweeping generalizations of inadaquacy, what would you recommend the SYSTEM do to be MORE effective at reaching the hurdles required?

Critics are a dime a dozen, problem solvers ... much more difficult.

BTW, it is no longer the late 1990's where there is no test for EPO. If your criticism rests entirely on that period, then your recommended solutions would already be in place - find an EPO test.

Let me again make it clear for you 'Gree0232'.

You have been going after this U23 Italian team for the better part of a week now. Has that resulted in any kind of sporting sanction? Have the insinuations sans evidence actually come back to make you look like a hypocrit?

Yep, it has, but in terms of fighting doping it and you have had absolutely zero effect.

Your accusations, well we are still determining whether they will be effective. The public accusations have clearly not resulted in anything, though, and as I have long said, they could be part of an effort to shake loose the evidence needed to convict. It could also be about simple revenge. If it shakes loose something, good. If not, just one more public accusation that will never result in anything but arosed emotions. In the end, YOu need evidence to back up his claims, and that evidence either comes or it doesn't.

In the meantime, please bear in mind that the same legal systems that bring down smuggling operations across Europe and North America (where there is FAR more money involved) are the same agencies that are charged with finding the evidence that you and others predict should be there - yet for some reason cannot seem to find. Curious.

It would be nice not to see the ready made excuses for failure (corruption, power of money, shi'te system, etc.). Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there are rules that must be followed in the system. Thus far, you, and others, refuse to referrence these rules or advocate solutions that will yield results -- the results that you desire. Either your convictions can meet the minimum standards REQUIRED by the system or they cannot.

Again, why are riders like Valverde, Ricco, Jaksche, Basso never caught by the UCI? The proof is quite literally the pudding in this case.

So, rather than bemoan the lack of desired results and make sweeping generalizations of inadaquacy, what would you recommend the SYSTEM do to be MORE effective at reaching the hurdles required?

Critics are a dime a dozen, problem solvers ... much more difficult.

BTW, this is an internet forum - we are not sanctioning people, we are entitled to our opinions, if you don't like it then move to Iran.[/QUOTE]

 

[Anonymous]

Let me again make it clear for you TFF.

Greg Lemond has been going after LA for the better part of a decade. Has that resulted in any kind of sporting sanction? Have the insinuations sans evidence actually come back to hurt GL in terms of lost sales for his bike brand and the sundering of ties with Trek?

Yep, he could be exactly right, but in terms of fighting doping he has had absolutely zero effect.

Floyd's accusations, we are still determining whether they will be effective. The public accusations have clearly not resulted in anything, though, and as I have long said, they could be part of an effort to shake loose the evidence needed to convict. It could also be about simple revenge. If it shakes loose something, good. If not, just one more public accusation that will never result in anything but arosed emotions. In the end, Floyd need evidence to back up his claims, and that evidence either comes or it doesn't.

In the meantime, please bear in mind that the same legal systems that bring down smuggling operations across Europe and North America (where there is FAR more money involved) are the same agencies that are charged with finding the evidence that you and others predict should be there - yet for some reason cannot seem to find. Curious.

It would be nice not to see the ready made excuses for failure (corruption, power of money, shi'te system, etc.). Whether you wish to acknowledge it or not, there are rules that must be followed in the system. Thus far, you, and others, refuse to referrence these rules or advocate solutions that will yield results -- the results that you desire. Either your convictions can meet the minimum standards REQUIRED by the system or they cannot.

Again, why are riders like DiLuca sanctioned? Why are riders like Levi not sanctioned? The proof is quite literally the pudding in this case.

So, rather than bemoan the lack of desired results and make sweeping generalizations of inadaquacy, what would you recommend the SYSTEM do to be MORE effective at reaching the hurdles required?

Critics are a dime a dozen, problem solvers ... much more difficult.

BTW, it is no longer the late 1990's where there is no test for EPO. If your criticism rests entirely on that period, then your recommended solutions would already be in place - find an EPO test.

Um, don't know if you are aware, but the FDA etc have not been involved until very recently. Up to that point, it was the same system that has already declared Flandis' revelations untrue (without investigation) that was "going after" anyone. So the evidence collected by those organizations is being collected as we speak.

Fact is that when people Like Kohl and other give the real story (you know, the one where they were doping and knew how to beat the test almost all of the time), you have to wonder why it is it took them so long to catch said offender. I mean, I guess you can buy the Basso line that most are just trying it for the first time, etc., but I am an adult and see right through excuses like that.

Problem solver? You see yourself as a "problem solver?" That is an interesting characterization of your obfuscation.

 

[gree0232]

So, if you don't like people making 'assumptions' then why have you assumed the Italian team is doped???

None of the riders have been prosecuted - nor indeed has their coach who thus far is the only one named.

And remember he said he only brought some vitamins in case they needed them!!!

Why are you using 'innuendo, rumor, and baseless assumptions, with no preponderance of evidence against an innocent (in a Court of whatever tickles you today).

Because they were caught with all the impliments of doping. It isn;t an assumption if it is written in the story.

Wow, and you think this kind of spin and personal animosity is going to result in any kind of benefit to counter doping? Good Luck doc.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Because they were caught with all the impliments of doping. It isn;t an assumption if it is written in the story.

Wow, and you think this kind of spin and personal animosity is going to result in any kind of benefit to counter doping? Good Luck doc.

Did you not read what the nice Mr.Leali said:

"They're just medicines, prescription medicines. I kept them in my bag, ready to use but only after the team doctor had given me a prescription"

And you say "it isn;t an assumption if it is written in the story" - but is that really the preponderence of evidence that you seek for us all here on the forum??

What happened your standards?

 

[gree0232]

Um, don't know if you are aware, but the FDA etc have not been involved until very recently. Up to that point, it was the same system that has already declared Flandis' revelations untrue (without investigation) that was "going after" anyone. So the evidence collected by those organizations is being collected as we speak.

Fact is that when people Like Kohl and other give the real story (you know, the one where they were doping and knew how to beat the test almost all of the time), you have to wonder why it is it took them so long to catch said offender. I mean, I guess you can buy the Basso line that most are just trying it for the first time, etc., but I am an adult and see right through excuses like that.

Problem solver? You see yourself as a "problem solver?" That is an interesting characterization of your obfuscation.

Um... the FDA is on one side of the Atlantic. The majority of cycling takes place on the other side, and it was certainly NOT the FDA that was involved in Italy was it?

Despite your prediction, what busted Kohl? Speculation or a positive dope test?

The system has launched investigations into FL accusations, and those investogations will either turn up evidence to back FL or they will not. Predisposing the investigations (which involve mutiple agencies from multiple nations) as failures once again simply sets up the reflexive blame (corruption, money, influence, etc.) rather than focusing on the lack of evidence .... which the system needs to move forward.

At this point it is FL'w against LA's word. If the only thing that makes one side more believeable than the other is emotive like or dislike, then bear in mind that this will never result in anything in terms of actual anti-doping.

Finally, I asked you for something productive for a change - a solution.

What should the system do, what tools should it adopt, to help meet the minimum standards required to get the results you desire?

Again, I am fully prepared to acknowledge that you might be 100% correct, are you prepared to acknowledge that you may be wrong if no evidence turns up?

Being fixated on unsuccessful methodology only results in failure to look at other methods and tools that will work better.

 

[gree0232]

Did you not read what the nice Mr.Leali said:


And you say "it isn;t an assumption if it is written in the story" - but is that really the preponderence of evidence that you seek for us all here on the forum??

What happened your standards?

Doc,
How do you get your information? If you cannot tell the difference between relying in printed sources and speculating about whether or not someone cares about the health of riders .... well, that is a personal problem.

The thread is about SUCCESSFUL methods of anti-doping. Not trolling against those who won't wear the white robes.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

.....
Despite your prediction, what busted Kohl? Speculation or a positive dope test?

The question isn't how Kohl was busted...... but who busted him.
Strange how in the same year the UCI declined to have the Giro samples retested for CERA.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Doc,
How do you get your information? If you cannot tell the difference between relying in printed sources and speculating about whether or not someone cares about the health of riders .... well, that is a personal problem.

The thread is about SUCCESSFUL methods of anti-doping. Not trolling against those who won't wear the white robes.

I get my information through the internet........ it's this big giant magic machine, you could try and google it.

In fact - when you find out how it works you could try:
Getting me the names of the people who were in the Hospital Room.
The name of the person who leaked Lances anti-doping numbers to L'Equipe - (not Dick Pound as you think)

I think you would be amazed at what you can learn.

 

[Necessary Evil]

Are these amature teams part of the bio passport system? I don't think they are.

This is where the hardcore doping will be found now - in the lower ranks.

 

[BikeCentric]

I actually agree with the Greetard on this one - what we saw here is indeed "how it's done." Namely, an Italian police action that was entirely independant of the UCI.

Going forward, real reform would involve stripping the UCI of all anti-doping responsibilities whatsoever and putting them under the purview of an entirely independant agency such as the AFLD or WADA. The UCI should of course continue to attempt to police their sport by for example mandating the penalties required for doping busts but given their repeated ineffectiveness in administering the testing itself they should be relieved of the responsibility.

Indeed, the "system" Greetard keeps referring to is badly broken and in need of reform as demonstrated by this example of Italian police charging another team that is allegedly doping right under the UCI's nose. Thanks for making this point clear to all by starting the thread Greetard.

 

[Oldman]

I actually agree with the Greetard on this one - what we saw here is indeed "how it's done." Namely, an Italian police action that was entirely independant of the UCI.

Going forward, real reform would involve stripping the UCI of all anti-doping responsibilities whatsoever and putting them under the purview of an entirely independant agency such as the AFLD or WADA. The UCI should of course continue to attempt to police their sport by for example mandating the penalties required for doping busts but given their repeated ineffectiveness in administering the testing itself they should be relieved of the responsibility.

Indeed, the "system" Greetard keeps referring to is badly broken and in need of reform as demonstrated by this example of Italian police charging another team that is allegedly doping right under the UCI's nose. Thanks for making this point clear to all by starting the thread Greetard.

I think we all said this about a week ago so thanks for restating. Perhaps some of the scrgeeeeching will stop. Horse....dead....flogging....