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Success in anti-doping

Feb 21, 2010
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gree0232 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-team-expelled-from-girobio-after-police-search

This gentlemen, is how it is done.

No rumors in the press. No hurling of insults and accusations.

Police get the reports, investigate, and then launch a targeted raid that nails the entire team .... with loads of evidence. The equipment, the drugs, the blood - all found.

This is what successful anti-doping actions look like.

Yes, I do not disagree one bit.

However, there are many ways to skin a cat. The bust in Italy is indicative of police authorities acting on tips and insider info, conducting an investigation with surveillance and acting on it.

For others, things are often more complex and nuanced. In the end, the result will be the same: Justice.

At least we agree on that.
 
Yes, with the current (and past, sorry Pat) state of the sport and it's testing, the main way the corruption, lies, cheating, collusion and doping have ever been brought to light is through police action.

Since there is no organization actually interested in policing the sport from within, this is what you have to rely on.

Not a great system.
 
May 11, 2009
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red_flanders said:
Yes, with the current (and past, sorry Pat) state of the sport and it's testing, the main way the corruption, lies, cheating, collusion and doping have ever been brought to light is through police action.

Since there is no organization actually interested in policing the sport from within, this is what you have to rely on.

Not a great system.

Well, lets keep this in perspective with a few questions.

1. Can the UCI get warrants to search rooms, buildings, etc.? No. The UCI is not a police agency, it is a regulatory agency.

2. Should the UCI be the sole agency responsible for testing? No. If any agency is solely responsible for testing athletes, then it is far easier to game the system. As it sits now, the UCI and national agencies conduct tests under rules governed by WADA.

The action with the Lucchini Unidelta team stands in stark contrast to the current battle between AFLD and the UCI. AFLD has made a lot of loud public noise with accusations of favoritism, medical waste (that has yet to result in anything but rumors and innuendo), and predictability. This has lead to a lot of public acrimony back and forth between the two agencies - but it has not resulted in much of anything in the anti-doping fight.

This also stands in stark contrast to the Fabian Cancellara accusations, which once again rely on rumor and innuendo.

Quiet success vs. public acrimony? Which does the sport need?
 
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red_flanders said:
Yes, with the current (and past, sorry Pat) state of the sport and it's testing, the main way the corruption, lies, cheating, collusion and doping have ever been brought to light is through police action.

Since there is no organization actually interested in policing the sport from within, this is what you have to rely on.

Not a great system.

Exactly. This was not a bust based on a positive test, which seems to be the only thing that will cause an Armstrong apologist like gree0232 to admit anything. This was investigative work by a government entity. I think Mr Armstrong should take note. I also think the UCI should take note. What I would like to see is a head of the UCI with enough balls to say that he will work with the government agencies and police of the countries of all of the teams in an effort to bring down those who cheat...only problem is that would mean bringing down every team in cycling at least in part.

gree0232 can keep his head in the sand a little longer, but the fact is that if that team was on a full program and anyone believes that the teams at higher levels are clean, they are fooling themselves.

This is a failure for the UCI because it is happening right under their noses, yet it takes someone from the outside to expose it. I think the title of this thread is weak and needs to be changed.
 
The sport needs a regulatory body interested in cleaning up the sport. Counting on police action as the way forward is...well, absurd. We've had police action impacting the sport for well over a decade and little to no change has occurred.

Is it a good thing that it occurred? IMO yes. However, it is completely incidental to a way forward in the sport. It's a sideshow. It has nothing, repeat NOTHING to do with the AFLD vs. UCI. It is an independent action, created by criminal activity and the lack of will within the sport to change the culture.

Everything the AFLD has said reeks of truth. The UCI is a corrupt body, interested only in their ability to sell the sport. It's a short-term strategy that will kill the sport. They blame those who tell the truth about the strategy for killing the sport, when in fact the blame rests squarely with them and their corrupt strategies.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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red_flanders said:
The sport needs a regulatory body interested in cleaning up the sport. Counting on police action as the way forward is...well, absurd. We've had police action impacting the sport for well over a decade and little to no change has occurred.

Is it a good thing that it occurred? IMO yes. However, it is completely incidental to a way forward in the sport. It's a sideshow. It has nothing, repeat NOTHING to do with the AFLD vs. UCI. It is an independent action, created by criminal activity and the lack of will within the sport to change the culture.

Everything the AFLD has said reeks of truth. The UCI is a corrupt body, interested only in their ability to sell the sport. It's a short-term strategy that will kill the sport. They blame those who tell the truth about the strategy for killing the sport, when in fact the blame rests squarely with them and their corrupt strategies.

I, for one, do not endorse the "French" manner in which Bordry goes about his business. Their main aim is to raise the public view on things they handle in order to gain budget padding. I also consider the fact that their lab has been dropped by many major sporting groups as a contract testing house to indicate general lack of confidence in their base work.

The row with the UCI is just window dressing on an issue that continues (well, at least for a short bit longer) to be concealed: the collaboration between the UCI and the LA/JB unit. This "alliance", of sorts, will have done more damage to cycling, than the seeming good they had achieved since 2000.

Bordry will do whatever he can to toss rubbish on the UCI, in order to find a way to get his money.

To me, the actions stateside will be what removes the LA/JB tumor from the heart of cycling.

Rounding back to the concept of police action, and govt intervention, this is what happens when a sport cannot keep its house in order.
 
May 11, 2009
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red_flanders said:
The sport needs a regulatory body interested in cleaning up the sport. Counting on police action as the way forward is...well, absurd. We've had police action impacting the sport for well over a decade and little to no change has occurred.

Everything the AFLD has said reeks of truth. The UCI is a corrupt body, interested only in their ability to sell the sport. It's a short-term strategy that will kill the sport. They blame those who tell the truth about the strategy for killing the sport, when in fact the blame rests squarely with them and their corrupt strategies.

And here we go again .... even with success handed to them on a golden platter, there is apparently still room to criticize the UCI :rolleyes:

Might as well toss in a few prejoratives like 'Armstrong lover' if someone favors police tactics rather than public accusations as well.

The UCI will never be involved in a police action like this one. Why? Because it does not have the power to do so. BALCO, the Jones case, were not broken up by the USADA, it was broken up by police agents who investigated and got the evidence needed to bust the ring. Even Festina broke because of customs agents, not because of any national or international regulatory agency.

The UCI can come up with tests to catch cheaters, and has done far better than any other sporting agency in designing tests to catch cheaters. New EPO tests, biologicial passports, where abouts systems, targeted testing (think DiLuca), and cooperation with agencies (including police agencies) to find and develop what is needed in anti-doping .... evidence.

Like it or not, evidence rather than just accusation is what is needed to move anti-doping efforts forward. If you are looking for a lesson in all of this, it is that it would be much better for insiders to leak information to police agencies rather than the press.

It is very easy to criticize, perhaps even appealing on an emotional level, but it is not the same thing as offering actual solutions.

If it is a criminal matter, the police can and SHOULD be the primary agent. Testing and regulation can and SHOULD remain the primary focus of the UCI.

Criticizing the UCI for not acting like a police agency, when it cannot do so, is counter-productive.
 
Feb 21, 2010
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gree0232 said:
If you are looking for a lesson in all of this, it is that it would be much better for insiders to leak information to police agencies rather than the press.

For whatever reason, you still seem to exclude the possibility that ALL insider info DOES go to the varied authorities.

Because it end up in the press, there can be any dozens o reasons why, and in the case of the AFLD it is to keep their name present so they can get their budgeting.

Other stories are often devices to send messages to certain parties. Often it is the authorities who leak details simply to monitor the reaction and fluttering of the targeted party. Action, reaction. Setting traps, catching them out.

I think you've, again, illustrated a particular lack of knowledge of how PR is leveraged.
 
gree0232 said:
And here we go again .... even with success handed to them on a golden platter, there is apparently still room to criticize the UCI :rolleyes:

You said "this..is how it's done" and "This is what successful anti-doping actions look like."

No.

This is what police activity against drug trafficking, possession and if I understand Italian laws correctly, Sporting Fraud looks like. To call it "anti-doping" and say this is the way it's done is to advocate that the correct way to fight doping is police action.

No.

It's a useful occurrence, but completely absolves the sport of any responsibility. You seem to constantly want to excuse the corruption in the sport. Why is that?

Might as well toss in a few prejoratives like 'Armstrong lover' if someone favors police tactics rather than public accusations as well.

Interesting. Since I didn't, you thought you'd toss them in there for me eh? Did that make it easier to excuse corruption or paint my comments in a bad light? Here's a tip. If you have to make **** up to make a point, you have no point. End of story.

The UCI will never be involved in a police action like this one. Why? Because it does not have the power to do so. BALCO, the Jones case, were not broken up by the USADA, it was broken up by police agents who investigated and got the evidence needed to bust the ring. Even Festina broke because of customs agents, not because of any national or international regulatory agency.

No kidding. And your point? You seem to be making mine for me. Nothing will happen as long as a corrupt organization runs cycling, and the only thing that will ever change things as long as that corrupt organization is in control is local government busting the drug cheats. This is the "way it's done" in one sense only--that it's only done this way because no one else does the simple things like follow their own organizational mandate and run a clean or at least lawful sport.

The UCI can come up with tests to catch cheaters, and has done far better than any other sporting agency in designing tests to catch cheaters. New EPO tests, biologicial passports, where abouts systems, targeted testing (think DiLuca), and cooperation with agencies (including police agencies) to find and develop what is needed in anti-doping .... evidence.

Like it or not, evidence rather than just accusation is what is needed to move anti-doping efforts forward. If you are looking for a lesson in all of this, it is that it would be much better for insiders to leak information to police agencies rather than the press.

It is very easy to criticize, perhaps even appealing on an emotional level, but it is not the same thing as offering actual solutions.

If it is a criminal matter, the police can and SHOULD be the primary agent. Testing and regulation can and SHOULD remain the primary focus of the UCI.

Criticizing the UCI for not acting like a police agency, when it cannot do so, is counter-productive.

Seriously, you could not be more clueless. To say the UCI is doing better than any other agency is demonstrably false. It's a lie. They are in the business of covering up doping and cheating. Do you know they sat on information about motorized bikes for OVER A YEAR and did nothing? Do you know how many times they've covered for and covered up major doping?

You are lying when you say it's just accusations. There are facts in abundance. You clearly know this and clearly are attempting to lie to obscure the facts at hand.

No one has criticized the UCI for "not acting like a police agency". You made this up, it's another lie. I criticized them for being corrupt and not doing their job, running a clean sport.

The only question is, what is the reason for your repeated lies about facts and statements, and near rabid defense of a clearly corrupt organization?
 
May 11, 2009
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Colm.Murphy said:
For whatever reason, you still seem to exclude the possibility that ALL insider info DOES go to the varied authorities.

Because it end up in the press, there can be any dozens o reasons why, and in the case of the AFLD it is to keep their name present so they can get their budgeting.

Other stories are often devices to send messages to certain parties. Often it is the authorities who leak details simply to monitor the reaction and fluttering of the targeted party. Action, reaction. Setting traps, catching them out.

I think you've, again, illustrated a particular lack of knowledge of how PR is leveraged.

It comes down something very simple: Reinforcing success or reinforcing failure.

What many fail to acknowledge, even the insiders, is that things that wind up in the Press do so because there is an agenda behind it. That goes for just about any subject where anonymous 'administration' officials leak something to the press. This is sometimes a good thing, when they are the proverbial whistle blower. This very often a bad thing, where there is a terrific bureaucratic battle being fought through links and innuendo and the only thing that is really at stake is whose political platform will win inside the relevant bureaucracy.

How do we determine which press leaks are which kind?

That happens in the follow up, with the leak leading to evidence that results in some kind action taken (or change in policy).

Bodry's accusations have proven to be all about infighting and are sorely lacking in any kind of eventual evidence. When that is the base of the public attacks, all anyone can really do is seek to minimize that influence and that is exactly what the UCI has done.

As for all the other accusations that are swirling around cycling these days, the leaks to the press now have to result in some kind of result. If you want LA/JB thrown out of cycling then perhaps it would be best to find the same kind of evidence that lead to the downfall of Lucchini Unidelta.

They are after all apparently engaged in exactly the same sort of practices, which should allow us to produce the exact same kind of evidence.

Continuing to malign LA/JB, Fabian, Basso, et al., or even proclaiming FL or Greg as truth tellers will not result in anything but more pointless acrimony. As I have long said, and as even you say Colm, if the systems are there to support doping (like organized crime), then the systems are there to be found, cataloged, exposed, and the relevant actors punished.

We can reinforce salacious accusation or we can bring the correct tools to bear and find and punish the relevant actors.

A few questions to hopefully bring this into proper scope:

Any sport will have athletes that seek to garner an edge at any cost, as the pay off is huge. Do you really think that other sports have less of a doping problem than cycling?

Even if the UCI, et al., come up with a sure fire way to catch all dopers (which is dubious at best) they will still wind up catching wound be dopers who think they are smarter than the system or just plain stupid. What level of testing, etc., will bring the suspicion down to the appropriate level where the racing rather than accusation becomes the mainstay of the sport?
 
Feb 21, 2010
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gree0232 said:
How do we determine which press leaks are which kind?

How do "we" or how do "I"?

I determine based on what I happen to know.

You questions at the end of your post won't be addressed. You've failed to answer SO many direct, important questions, that extending any conversation with you is utter waste.
 
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gree0232 said:
It comes down something very simple: Reinforcing success or reinforcing failure.

Amateurs just got busted with a full doping program. I would suggest that the efforts of the UCI have been nothing but a failure unless your goal is to standardize doping practices, which is clearly what the Bio Passport does. They just set a limit on horsepower, and everyone did what they needed to stay in those limits.

gree0232 said:
What many fail to acknowledge, even the insiders, is that things that wind up in the Press do so because there is an agenda behind it. That goes for just about any subject where anonymous 'administration' officials leak something to the press. This is sometimes a good thing, when they are the proverbial whistle blower. This very often a bad thing, where there is a terrific bureaucratic battle being fought through links and innuendo and the only thing that is really at stake is whose political platform will win inside the relevant bureaucracy.

Your contention that Flandis' revelations were to benefit which bureaucracy exactly? I will grant you the battle between Bodry and the UCI is political. However, they are both sitting on the sidelines of the real battle here out of choices made for economic reasons and not ethical sporting decisions. However, I will grant Bodry this, when they did the testing, people got busted. When the UCI is involved, all we hear from Pat is that the new clean generation is swelling and winning. You will have to excuse me if I chuckle at the notion.

gree0232 said:
How do we determine which press leaks are which kind?

That is a personal decision.

gree0232 said:
That happens in the follow up, with the leak leading to evidence that results in some kind action taken (or change in policy).

There appears to be some pretty significant action taking place in regards to the Landis revelations. Assigning a Federal investigator and Federal Prosecutor are pretty significant actions. Putting out press releases that are nothing more than a pi$$ing contest about credibility are not. Putting out accusations of blackmail and then putting out the emails that you say do that, when those emails do nothing of the sort is just a bad PR move. I would suggest that the action at this point suggests that there is fire under the smoke.

gree0232 said:
Bodry's accusations have proven to be all about infighting and are sorely lacking in any kind of eventual evidence. When that is the base of the public attacks, all anyone can really do is seek to minimize that influence and that is exactly what the UCI has done.

When you fail at fighting against one part of this, you just move the goal posts again. It is the only way you can keep posting, because if you go back to the sites of your failures, you would only be able to admit your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of these subjects, and you don't appear to have the humility to admit when you are wrong.

gree0232 said:
As for all the other accusations that are swirling around cycling these days, the leaks to the press now have to result in some kind of result. If you want LA/JB thrown out of cycling then perhaps it would be best to find the same kind of evidence that lead to the downfall of Lucchini Unidelta.

I would suggest that you just wait a little bit. I think you will find that as we speak, the evidence is being compiled. I am willing to bet that when it comes out, we will never hear from you again. Unlike dbrower, you don't seem the type to take your medicine when the time comes.

gree0232 said:
They are after all apparently engaged in exactly the same sort of practices, which should allow us to produce the exact same kind of evidence.

You and I agree on this point.

gree0232 said:
Continuing to malign LA/JB, Fabian, Basso, et al., or even proclaiming FL or Greg as truth tellers will not result in anything but more pointless acrimony.

Reverse this statement, and then look in the mirror.

gree0232 said:
As I have long said, and as even you say Colm, if the systems are there to support doping (like organized crime), then the systems are there to be found, cataloged, exposed, and the relevant actors punished.

Just as with any organized crime, they will only get the stupid ones for the most part. Other families will maintain their operations because they are smart enough to shut their mouths and not do stupid things that will draw attention to themselves. Twitters about doping controls, chasing riders who have advocated clean racing, and making payments to the governing body are stupid from a PR standpoint. Intelligent criminal enterprise stays out of the news for any reason. Shooting your mouth off is the hallmark of an individual who wants everyone to know how smart he thinks he is in his beating of the system.

gree0232 said:
We can reinforce salacious accusation or we can bring the correct tools to bear and find and punish the relevant actors.

That is happening.

gree0232 said:
A few questions to hopefully bring this into proper scope:

Any sport will have athletes that seek to garner an edge at any cost, as the pay off is huge. Do you really think that other sports have less of a doping problem than cycling?

Setting up for a straw man is rhetorical dishonesty. It is also transparent to anyone who has read your drivel over these past weeks. Don't expect an answer from anyone. Your question doesn't deserve one.


gree0232 said:
Even if the UCI, et al., come up with a sure fire way to catch all dopers (which is dubious at best) they will still wind up catching wound be dopers who think they are smarter than the system or just plain stupid. What level of testing, etc., will bring the suspicion down to the appropriate level where the racing rather than accusation becomes the mainstay of the sport?

When amateur teams get busted for full program doping, you will have to excuse anyone who ignores this question. How long is a piece of string?
 

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gree0232 said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/italian-team-expelled-from-girobio-after-police-search

This gentlemen, is how it is done.

No rumors in the press. No hurling of insults and accusations.

Police get the reports, investigate, and then launch a targeted raid that nails the entire team .... with loads of evidence. The equipment, the drugs, the blood - all found.

This is what successful anti-doping actions look like.

+1 gree0232.

But not ALL the credit should go to the Italian Military Police.

Afterall, the BabyGiro Organizers had the foresight to house the riders in a dormitory with WINDOWS that would not open from the inside. No jumpers.

I wonder if the riders be fined or jailed.
Trial by jury or something else I wonder too.
 
May 6, 2009
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Hang on - where does it way they found blood? Reading the CN article, it looks like the things found were "hormones, medicines to help recovery, syringes and butterfly valves".
Has there been any other info from another source?
 
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thingswelike said:
butterfly valves".
valves ? they must have HUGE veins:eek:

here's one...it even comes in astana colours and an injection spring-loaded handle:).


65410150_1-Pictures-of-Butterfly-Valve-Slim-Seal-Wafer-Type-Butterfly-Valves-Manufacturer-Butterfly-Valves.jpg
 
May 11, 2009
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Thoughtforfood said:
Amateurs just got busted with a full doping program. I would suggest that the efforts of the UCI have been nothing but a failure unless your goal is to standardize doping practices, which is clearly what the Bio Passport does. They just set a limit on horsepower, and everyone did what they needed to stay in those limits.



Your contention that Flandis' revelations were to benefit which bureaucracy exactly? I will grant you the battle between Bodry and the UCI is political. However, they are both sitting on the sidelines of the real battle here out of choices made for economic reasons and not ethical sporting decisions. However, I will grant Bodry this, when they did the testing, people got busted. When the UCI is involved, all we hear from Pat is that the new clean generation is swelling and winning. You will have to excuse me if I chuckle at the notion.



That is a personal decision.



There appears to be some pretty significant action taking place in regards to the Landis revelations. Assigning a Federal investigator and Federal Prosecutor are pretty significant actions. Putting out press releases that are nothing more than a pi$$ing contest about credibility are not. Putting out accusations of blackmail and then putting out the emails that you say do that, when those emails do nothing of the sort is just a bad PR move. I would suggest that the action at this point suggests that there is fire under the smoke.



When you fail at fighting against one part of this, you just move the goal posts again. It is the only way you can keep posting, because if you go back to the sites of your failures, you would only be able to admit your complete lack of knowledge and understanding of these subjects, and you don't appear to have the humility to admit when you are wrong.



I would suggest that you just wait a little bit. I think you will find that as we speak, the evidence is being compiled. I am willing to bet that when it comes out, we will never hear from you again. Unlike dbrower, you don't seem the type to take your medicine when the time comes.



You and I agree on this point.



Reverse this statement, and then look in the mirror.



Just as with any organized crime, they will only get the stupid ones for the most part. Other families will maintain their operations because they are smart enough to shut their mouths and not do stupid things that will draw attention to themselves. Twitters about doping controls, chasing riders who have advocated clean racing, and making payments to the governing body are stupid from a PR standpoint. Intelligent criminal enterprise stays out of the news for any reason. Shooting your mouth off is the hallmark of an individual who wants everyone to know how smart he thinks he is in his beating of the system.



That is happening.



Setting up for a straw man is rhetorical dishonesty. It is also transparent to anyone who has read your drivel over these past weeks. Don't expect an answer from anyone. Your question doesn't deserve one.




When amateur teams get busted for full program doping, you will have to excuse anyone who ignores this question. How long is a piece of string?

Well, there is the problem TFF.

Too many 'anti-dopers' are so utterly convinced that they no longer even care to look at evidence.

I will say it again, so the rabid personal trolling is put in place, I do not care whether LA or any other rider is doping or not. What I care about is that we use a systemic AND SUCCESSFUL system to nail the guys with evidence that leads to actual sanction.

..... rather than just press leaks, innuendo, and insinuation.

What got DiLuca? The biopass port anomolies and targeted testing and retesting resulting in a positive test. done.

What got Valverde? Basso? His DNA in a blood bag. done.

What got FL? A positive test for synthetic testosterone. done.

What broke the Festina Affair? Customs officials finding a car full of dope. done.

What has failed to get LA since 1999? Press leaks, innuendo, etc.

IF LA is finally nailed because law enforcement builds a solid case against him, that will only prove me right. The UCI, et al. cannot do anything without evidence. Period.

You inability to separate methodology from desired results is a problem. Please though, spare us the emotionalism, prejorative accusations, and insults when banging your head against a brick wall for a decade doesn't produce the desired result.

It really shouldn't be that difficult after a decade of failure to hear someone say, "stop banging your head into that wall and try going over the wall instead." One way will get you past the wall, the other will not.

However, and bearing in mind that I have no vested interest in LA one way or the other, what happens if said investigation fails to produce anything on LA/JB?

They are accused of the exact same bahavior as the 'minor' team that started this thread, so why can't we produce the same result with major teams using the same thing?

Is it because the Gendarmerie are hopelessly incompitent and corrupt?

Again, the predictive idea (for which I fully acknowledge a great deal of circumstantial evidence) says that certain systems should be in place and can be found. So find them TFF and all your dreams will come true.
 
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Thoughtforfood said:
Amateurs just got busted with a full doping program. I would suggest that the efforts of the UCI have been nothing but a failure unless your goal is to standardize doping practices, which is clearly what the Bio Passport does. They just set a limit on horsepower, and everyone did what they needed to stay in those limits.

When amateur teams get busted for full program doping, you will have to excuse anyone who ignores this question. How long is a piece of string?

It is another example of UCI tolerance for the Old Ways....Bruno Leali's history with Carrera, Mercatone Uno, Bianchi; you don't think the Italian Feds and the UCI would know alot about the history of his operation: they're the insiders. The Carbineri making the bust just meant the information got close enough to the surface to be impossible to ignore.
The UCI fails miserably. Period.
 
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Oldman said:
The UCI fails miserably. Period.

if i was a bike manufacturer, i would be pulling my hair out with these guys.

I imagine there will be a great opportunity as soon as the Landis revelations hit the courts and due process starts for various big names in the sport to set up their own federation away from the omerta....

obviously not T rek....:rolleyes: or sRam...

Cervelo springs to mind, i am pretty sure their are others, not so sure about Garmin, but hopefully they will be shown to be clean,but i aint too hopeful...

if you could set up your own cycling league with the strictest testing, it would attract all the money and very quickly the best riders
 
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Benotti69 said:
if i was a bike manufacturer, i would be pulling my hair out with these guys.

I imagine there will be a great opportunity as soon as the Landis revelations hit the courts and due process starts for various big names in the sport to set up their own federation away from the omerta....

obviously not T rek....:rolleyes: or sRam...

Cervelo springs to mind, i am pretty sure their are others, not so sure about Garmin, but hopefully they will be shown to be clean,but i aint too hopeful...

if you could set up your own cycling league with the strictest testing, it would attract all the money and very quickly the best riders

We're getting a little off topic but I'd speculate that the manufacturer's of higher end equipment might not get hurt that bad. Riders surely would want the bike that would go the fastest no matter what the Propulsion Unit was(see-PED enhanced amateur/pro). Joe public might have a problem putting an entry level model Trek in his garage, though.
 
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red_flanders said:
You said "this..is how it's done" and "This is what successful anti-doping actions look like."

No.

This is what police activity against drug trafficking, possession and if I understand Italian laws correctly, Sporting Fraud looks like. To call it "anti-doping" and say this is the way it's done is to advocate that the correct way to fight doping is police action.

You are lying when you say it's just accusations. There are facts in abundance. You clearly know this and clearly are attempting to lie to obscure the facts at hand.

No one has criticized the UCI for "not acting like a police agency". You made this up, it's another lie. I criticized them for being corrupt and not doing their job, running a clean sport.

The only question is, what is the reason for your repeated lies about facts and statements, and near rabid defense of a clearly corrupt organization?

Maybe la/jb and paddy o'furniture share publicists? Why should la have to foot the bill for conspiracy? it appears that the uci is kicking in some of their ill gotten kaysh to keep the shills fighting the battle of public perception.
 
May 11, 2009
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alberto.legstrong said:
Maybe la/jb and paddy o'furniture share publicists? Why should la have to foot the bill for conspiracy? it appears that the uci is kicking in some of their ill gotten kaysh to keep the shills fighting the battle of public perception.

Well, this is pretty simple. I love it when the rabid accuse others of being rabid.

So, step up with some proof rather than just blatant trolling for a change. I could be wrong, but I doubt it on this one, so lets check.

Here are some relevant sites for you:

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=MzQ2MTM&LangId=1

http://www.uci.ch/Modules/BUILTIN/g...bjTypeCode=FILE&type=FILE&id=NDc3MDk&LangId=1

Can the UCI issue arrest warrants? Nope.

Does the UCI have the power to arrest and detain someone? Nope.

Can the UCI issue search warrants? Nope.

Can a sporting governing agency go into a sovereign foreign country and conduct surveillance, detainment and detention of citizens, and collect evidence for criminal procedures within that nation’s jurisdiction? Nope.

So, would it perhaps be best to cooperate with the local law enforcement agencies to conduct law enforcement activities within the nation whose courts and procedures will eventually rule on the criminal conduct? (And doping is a crime in most Nations where cycling takes place). Yep.

In short, if the UCI develops evidence of a crime, doping, it must nevertheless turn the information over to the relevant national police agencies to get the 'police' action that follows. If no arrests follow, ala Puerto? That is not the UCI's fault.

The UCI probably can have some legitimate criticism brought against it. However, that would not include chastizing the UCI for failing to act like a police agency, which it cannot do, and for failing to deliberately infringe upon various nation's soverignty in the anti-doping Crusade, which it also cannot and SHOULD NOT do.

Honestly, if this is the case that various anti-doping advocates are making to close the loop on doping, then there should be little wonder at the wide divergance between desired and delivered results.

There are effective ways to combat doping, pointing fingers and telling agencies to do things that they cannot do is not effective. That simple.
 
Jul 2, 2009
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correct.

"There are effective ways to combat doping, pointing fingers and telling agencies to do things that they cannot do is not effective. That simple. "


and that is not what is going to happen.

Truth or Lie, they make the choice.

The UCI is a shame. proof. read

are we to forget about all the facts written. All the statements made.
If so, a fools paradise?

I am quite looking forward to how this all unfolds.

we can dance from fencepost to fencepost on this one, if you like

.............

Simple Truth

Wake from sleep,
Covered like a burial shroud,
Go do the best,
Go make the family proud,
Live through waking dreams,
Hidden here within the crowd.

Why is the sad truth,
No better than a simple lie,
Here in the heartland,
Awake to hear this cry,
Say all the right words,
And yet still you sigh,
Why is the sad truth,
No better than a simple lie?
 
Jul 25, 2009
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gree0232 said:
The UCI probably can have some legitimate criticism brought against it. However, that would not include chastizing the UCI for failing to act like a police agency.....

Once again, who is chastising the UCI for failing to act like a police agency?

There is a big difference between pointing out that a police bust is not successful UCI anti-doping action and chastising UCI for not behaving like police. Why are you ignoring this difference?

....I do not care whether LA or any other rider is doping or not. What I care about is that we use a systemic AND SUCCESSFUL system to nail the guys with evidence that leads to actual sanction.

You don't care whether athletes are doping, which may be affecting their health, you just care whether people get caught.

There is really no need to badger the message board with this view; it's not like we haven't heard it all before.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Jun 19, 2009
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gree0232 said:
..........
Am, who has said the UCI should be acting like a 'Police Agency'?

Strange how in your opening post you state a "team has been caught for doping", when in fact it was a manager? Do the team members not get the "innocent until proven guilty" blather that a certain Texan gets?


Oh, and while you are on the UCI website could you link in the 'Letters from the Lab's", promised 3 weeks ago?
 

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