Systematic doping of Kenyan runners

[DirtyWorks]

How much money is there is long distance running though? I mean, for the coaches and doctors etc.? Are there big purses on the international circuit? I know winning NYC marathon gets you a mercedes and cash but it's not like a Euro Cycling contract as a team leader for >$1 million then the athlete can pay doc $70k for a year of a program like Tyler did?

The way the system appears to work is the Marathon pays ,at minimum, an appearance fee. The idea is that having world-ranked runners draws more money into the event. It works pretty well. The money in marathon comes from the thousands of amateur entrants and various sponsor opportunities. That's before broadcasting rights.

Basically then, all of the lead group plus at least one rabbit is paid to run. The rabbit's job is to set a fast pace to set the drama up at the end. Every once in a while, the rabbit paid to run a pace fulfills his deal and still wins.

Here's an informative article about the money-side of marathon events: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/04/sports/04marathon.html?pagewanted=all Six figures for top-tier talent to show up at your marathon. Doping pays well.

 

[Race Radio]

Exactly, everyone who barely understand how Kenyans or Ethiopians train and live would have said same. I know it is sound stupid, but they are still in 1920 s on training principles.
They barely have running shoes when starting (flat feet and related injuries are common), planed/structured training plan is tailored by one runner (mostly star) and everyone follows it.
So no wonder when some coach (I know one) came there and show those guys things, first how to rest
How to run, they knows that already. Training with HRM is still space ship technology to them.
So I would rename this thread into:"Systematic misunderstanding of Kenyan runners" or I am fat and hate running

What does their training principles have to do with the fact that it was easy to find who there doctors where and what their doping program was?

To pretend that Kenyans are innocents shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the modern sports world.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Excerpts from letsrun forum

Most interesting:
For many Kenyans (not all!), the standard response to questions of the form "do you know..." or "can you help me with ..." is "Yes" if a mzungu (white foreigner) is the one asking, particularly if the mzungu is a stranger. In my opinion, the motivation is a variable mix of cultural factors (wanting to be helpful) and economic factors (helping mzungus is often seen as the road to wealth).

In fact, this is a regular challenge in daily life for expats living in Kenya. Ask a taxi driver in Nairobi, "Do you know the way to X?" or the guy at the computer shop "can you unlock my iPhone?" and 90% of the time, the answer is going to be "yes" ... even if they have no clue.

Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4585167&page=3#ixzz1wqiVVXij


All very typical stuff including the deniers and "never tested positives." I thought these were relevant...

A guy posted a very pertinent point a towards to end of the second page - discussing the 'running to and from school, clean living, yada yada yada'. This is the naive public perception of East African athletes - this is what the IAAF are working to maintain.

In terms of international distance running, the credibility of Kenyan/Ethiopian athletes is the credibility of the sport. A few Spanish/Russians getting busted here and there makes no real odds, the damage to the sport is negligible because of where they're from. You start catching Africans - distance running becomes the new cycling.

It doesn't matter if only 5 Kenyans are doping out of 20000. If they catch those 5, they're all tainted. That's why it's best to catch none.

Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4585167&page=2#ixzz1wqghuwMi



There is at least one shop in Nairobi, called , where HGH is available off the shelf, and EPO can be bought for next-day delivery. The owner claims Makau, who lives around the corner, is a regular customer, as are many other runners (and two were in the shop when the journalists were filming undercover). Why doesn't AK know about this, and if they do, why is no action taken?

There is a doctor, who has detailed blood profiles of Pamela Jelimo, and claims he works with many other athletes (including foreigners, by the way), who also runs a doping (and drug testing) lab in his back room. Do you expect AK or WADA to question Jelimo about this, and if they identify the doctor (which should not be hard to do, you can see his practice in the video), do you expect them to launch a "Puerto" style investigation? Is there any evidence that they have already started (as far as I know, they were contacted before the broadcast)?

The IAAF medical director was quoted saying that, in 2012, there are still no blood tests done in Kenya. How is this possible? Why has there been no outcry about this?

Read more: http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=4585167&page=1#ixzz1wqfrd4lt

 

[MrRoboto]

Exactly, everyone who barely understand how Kenyans or Ethiopians train and live would have said same. I know it is sound stupid, but they are still in 1920 s on training principles.
They barely have running shoes when starting (flat feet and related injuries are common), planed/structured training plan is tailored by one runner (mostly star) and everyone follows it.
So no wonder when some coach (I know one) came there and show those guys things, first how to rest
How to run, they knows that already. Training with HRM is still space ship technology to them.
So I would rename this thread into:"Systematic misunderstanding of Kenyan runners" or I am fat and hate running

A guy busts systematic doping among kenyan runners, and your answer is that people here are are fat or don't know what they are talking about, because doping would be 'space technology' for kenyans?

You know why their traning methods are ancient? Because it works. They mostly train like western athletes have done for ages. And like their western athletes still train. The thing that have changed is the times. The times keep dropping.

 

[Boeing]

Why is it that people from countries with the least amount of food win the most track and field medals and run the fastest marathons?

 

[chain chain chain]

Sure all the things you mentioned in your post will improve race day performance.

But the consistency and pace at winning these major events has been a puzzler for quite sometime.

I believe that it has been known in the running community since the late 80’s that something was happening and that it was an organized system.
That does not excuse the poor results that have come from the USATF and the European countries but it does have some effect. For example “Out of competition testing”. The amount of testing that European athletes and then USA athletes see is far more than some of the “Other countries”.

You can’t just explain away the performances and consistency with “better training methods”.

Side note and a more personal note. I remember back in the 90’s when USA marathon coaching started to notice that USA marathon / distance running was falling well short. This was explained away as we did not have the talent or the training discipline anymore. This was a very interesting explanation especially considering what I knew to be bull**** at the time. I was part of a marathon training group that consisted of quite a few Olympic trial qualifiers and world class marathoners. Out training weeks were in excess of 80 miles a week and based on mileage and quality mileage alone it was not near producing the results that the very same methods were producing from the decade before. Why was that? I just used that one aspect of training (mileage) as an example we were doing many things including HRM and other testing along with that.

Over on letsrun forums that “coach” Carnova is having a meltdown.

Yes thank nice post Wilson!
There is more genetic variation among Africans than between Africans and Eurasians, and I am pointing this to defend myself as a guy who wouldn't say:" Kenyans don't need to train hard because they are living on high altitudes", or "Nandi tribe in Kenya has been self-selected over centuries for endurance performance through cultural practices such as cattle raiding" and therefore they just need to show themselves at London to win anything between 1500m to marathon

Those statements above typically ignore the socioeconomic and
cultural factors that appear to better explain ethnic differences in performance, but, but, but there is something there for sure.

Let me explain; I believe that those wonderful guys have some potential advantages over white people, but those advantages per example;
"that showed that the center of mass in “blacks” was 3% higher above the ground than in “whites” and extrapolated this to mean that “blacks” hold a
1.5% speed advantage in running"

or other things related with altitude offer maybe 2%!! top advantage over rich whites
They train hard as whites, and those little advantages gives them that boost. Running is they way out from poor world, like blacks has their own way out through boxing once.

Bring them money and some other choices and you will have some white dude domination in running again, they will doing some rap songs, no one is crazy to run 130km per week if don't need.
I'm just sayin'

 

[chain chain chain]

What does their training principles have to do with the fact that it was easy to find who there doctors where and what their doping program was?

To pretend that Kenyans are innocents shows a fundamental lack of understanding of the modern sports world.

Don't be evil, where is that doctor, his name, and names of doped Kenyan runners from his stable? Could you provide us with that please?
Kenyan doping program, sound interesting, could you be more specific?
Don't get me wrong RR but this sounds like bad ABC flash news before London.
Peace

 

[Epicycle]

Just go to the IAAF site and look at the fastest historical times for men's distance races. They are all filled with times run since 1993. It's undeniable. You have to go way down the lists to find a pre-EPO era time. I'm very skeptical that anybody high on those lists isn't/wasn't blood doping. And that means the ones with the freest reign are going to have higher rates of success.

 

[DirtyWorks]

.. I believe that those wonderful guys have some potential advantages...

This proves nothing. We've seen these crazy hypotheses before and then the truth comes out after it's waaaay too late that it was doping. Marion Jones apparently never tested positive and yet was using since she was a teenager.

As Epicycle pointed out, times decrease with the introduction of EPO and onwards. Shocker! Not only does Tennis have a long standing doping problem, IAAF (Kenyan marathon) does too. For once Pro cycling actually looks a bit better in comparison.

 

[Race Radio]

Deflection

None of what you are writing has anything do to with the Kenyan's doping program.

 

[Race Radio]

Don't be evil, where is that doctor, his name, and names of doped Kenyan runners from his stable? Could you provide us with that please?
Kenyan doping program, sound interesting, could you be more specific?
Don't get me wrong RR but this sounds like bad ABC flash news before London.
Peace

Which doctor? There are a few, perhaps you are refering to Dr. Gabriele Rosa. He used to work in cycling until too many of his riders tested positive and he switched to "Coaching" runners.

Rosa-coached athletes won world cross country titles, world track titles, Olympic medals and set numerous world and marathon course records.One of his top athletes, Paul Tergat, is the world record holder in the marathon

What does Rosa think about doping?

""In some sports, such as cycling, it is not possible to compete if you are not using drugs,''

 

[chain chain chain]

Ok let's see it, marathon world record progression
2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo Ethiopia 1988 Rotterdam Marathon
2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi Morocco 1999 Chicago Marathon
2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi United States 2002 London Marathon
2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa 1998 Berlin Marathon
2:04:55 Paul Tergat Kenya 2003 Berlin Marathon
2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2007 Berlin Marathon
2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2008 Berlin Marathon
2:03:38 Patrick Makau 2011 Kenya Berlin Marathon

Huge improvement of 3 minutes and over 23 years of sport evolution and high tech anti doping techniques in Berlin
Must have something with training also guys
Still haven't see massive, top Kenyan doped runners list Anyone has see it, let me know.

 

[chain chain chain]

Which doctor? There are a few, perhaps you are refering to Dr. Gabriele Rosa. He used to work in cycling until too many of his riders tested positive and he switched to "Coaching" runners.

Rosa-coached athletes won world cross country titles, world track titles, Olympic medals and set numerous world and marathon course records.One of his top athletes, Paul Tergat, is the world record holder in the marathon

What does Rosa think about doping?

I'm blind or what? I ask you to name specific doctor and his clients who are doped as Marion Jones ***
I'm not interesting about what Rosa thinks or do, or his cycling history

Ok, now you should mention dr. Ferrari, Lance, Pink Floyd and theirs alleged safari in Kenya and how they stumble upon Gebrselassie while hunting lions, and wonderful debate can start.
Peace, little sarcasm sorry

 

[chain chain chain]

This proves nothing. We've seen these crazy hypotheses before and then the truth comes out after it's waaaay too late that it was doping. Marion Jones apparently never tested positive and yet was using since she was a teenager.

As Epicycle pointed out, times decrease with the introduction of EPO and onwards. Shocker! Not only does Tennis have a long standing doping problem, IAAF (Kenyan marathon) does too. For once Pro cycling actually looks a bit better in comparison.

She had no need for being doped Interesting reading indeed, still plenty of things have to be brought to sun She was my favorite runner.
From some article about genes and stuff

"Similarly, others have suggested that the superior sprint performances of African-Americans of primarily west African origin were due to a favorable biology (e.g., muscle fiber characteristics, metabolic pathways, and pulmonary
physiology) hypothesized to have been concentrated by natural selection over three centuries in the Afrocentric peoples displaced from west Africa to the New World during the slave trade

Biochemical differences between west African and west African-descended populations and all other groups, including other black Africans, began but did not end with the sickling of the hemoglobin molecule. Individuals with the sickle-cell trait possessed a significant selective advantage in the uniquely lethal west African malarial environment that triggered a series of physiological adjustments and compensatory mechanisms that had favorable consequences for sprinting .

While this hypothesis remains to be tested, another untested hypothesis that also warrants investigation is that the favorable west African biology may have been concentrated as a consequence of the displacement process and the harsh living conditions where mainly the “fittest” slaves survived.

During the whole slave trade period, ~10 million west Africans were enslaved and some 10 million more died during the process of capture and transportation. The transportation across the Atlantic was extremely brutal, lasting many weeks and at least 1 in 4 people who were transported from Africa died before reaching their destination.

Despite these untested hypotheses having potential theoretical underpinnings, it is unjustified at present to regard the phenomenal athletic success of Jamaicans, or indeed east Africans, as genetically mediated; to justify doing so one must identify the genes that are responsible for that success.

However, it is a justified hypothesis and is eminently amenable to experimental verification or disproof"

 

[Race Radio]

Ok let's see it, marathon world record progression
2:06:50 Belayneh Dinsamo Ethiopia 1988 Rotterdam Marathon
2:05:42 Khalid Khannouchi Morocco 1999 Chicago Marathon
2:05:38 Khalid Khannouchi United States 2002 London Marathon
2:06:05 Ronaldo da Costa 1998 Berlin Marathon
2:04:55 Paul Tergat Kenya 2003 Berlin Marathon
2:04:26 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2007 Berlin Marathon
2:03:59 Haile Gebrselassie Ethiopia 2008 Berlin Marathon
2:03:38 Patrick Makau 2011 Kenya Berlin Marathon

Huge improvement of 3 minutes and over 23 years of sport evolution and high tech anti doping techniques in Berlin
Must have something with training also guys
Still haven't see massive, top Kenyan doped runners list Anyone has see it, let me know.

Nice deflection, but that is not what was discussed.

Of the top 200 Marathon times ever run only 2 pre-date EPO....2.

You are welcome to believe that dozens of runners suddenly discovered new training methods but most ration people know this is not the case. The marathon world record remained barely changed for lose to 2 decades before suddenly, in the space of a few years, 200 people ran faster......really?

 

[Caruut]

She had no need for being doped Interesting reading indeed, still plenty of things have to be brought to sun She was my favorite runner.
From some article about genes and stuff

"Similarly, others have suggested that the superior sprint performances of African-Americans of primarily west African origin were due to a favorable biology (e.g., muscle fiber characteristics, metabolic pathways, and pulmonary
physiology) hypothesized to have been concentrated by natural selection over three centuries in the Afrocentric peoples displaced from west Africa to the New World during the slave trade

Biochemical differences between west African and west African-descended populations and all other groups, including other black Africans, began but did not end with the sickling of the hemoglobin molecule. Individuals with the sickle-cell trait possessed a significant selective advantage in the uniquely lethal west African malarial environment that triggered a series of physiological adjustments and compensatory mechanisms that had favorable consequences for sprinting .

While this hypothesis remains to be tested, another untested hypothesis that also warrants investigation is that the favorable west African biology may have been concentrated as a consequence of the displacement process and the harsh living conditions where mainly the “fittest” slaves survived.

During the whole slave trade period, ~10 million west Africans were enslaved and some 10 million more died during the process of capture and transportation. The transportation across the Atlantic was extremely brutal, lasting many weeks and at least 1 in 4 people who were transported from Africa died before reaching their destination.

Despite these untested hypotheses having potential theoretical underpinnings, it is unjustified at present to regard the phenomenal athletic success of Jamaicans, or indeed east Africans, as genetically mediated; to justify doing so one must identify the genes that are responsible for that success.

However, it is a justified hypothesis and is eminently amenable to experimental verification or disproof"

So you're saying that because Jamaicans are good sprinters, Kenyans don't dope?

 

[Race Radio]

Is Fabiani working for the Kenyan's now? I have not seen obfuscation this bad since Rumsas wife got caught with drugs for her mom and dog

 

[chain chain chain]

So you're saying that because Jamaicans are good sprinters, Kenyans don't dope?

Yes, yes...Kenyans didn't being shipped to the new world so they must be doped because that fact
In fact they are crying to be left in Africa

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Is Fabiani working for the Kenyan's now? I have not seen obfuscation this bad since Rumsas wife got caught with drugs for her mom and dog

This is another iteration of a banned poster. Always easy to spot by the familiarity with the members here, and the blatant trolling. Sooner or later they will be banned.

 

[Caruut]

Yes, yes...Kenyans didn't being shipped to the new world so they must be doped because that fact
In fact they are crying to be left in Africa

What on earth are you trying to say?

 

[_nm___]

Don't be evil, where is that doctor, his name, and names of doped Kenyan runners from his stable? Could you provide us with that please?
Kenyan doping program, sound interesting, could you be more specific?
Don't get me wrong RR but this sounds like bad ABC flash news before London.
Peace

hi i've not read the whole thread so i may be saying something way off topic but:
Stefan Matschiner says in his book that all of his kenyan runners were doped and that, either they already had their own provider of doping products before getting under contract with him, or if they didn't, they would ask him for "help" and he would provided them, or they might use a mix of sources to get to their doping products.

so products don't always come from doctors.

and he never really sounds like there might have been an exception among his kenyans, they were all on something. but then again so were a lot of austrians, too.
the book goes from roughly 2003 up to 2008.

but i don't follow athletics so i can't remember any names.

i know Matschiner has collaborated with Seppelt after the former came out of prison. so Matschiner might have been one of the inspirations for this Seppelt documentary.

also, to answer your post, yes, this is flash news before london. Hajo Seppelt does exactly the same before every big event. he whinges about europeans and north americans being tested all year 'round while third world athletes can experiment with whatever they want. basically his message is "don't believe in it if it is somebody from the 3rd world who wins it". and it works unbelievably well, i know a lot of people in germany who believe just that now. this is sad.
last time he did it was just before or just around the big track event in berlin: this time it was a reportagem about the jamaicans.

he is biased, and in his interviews he doesn't even look like he knows a thing about doping, and he just seems to be whinging a lot more than trying to bring serious news, i find him manipulative (but that's my very personal impression), even though there is some truth in what he says

 

[Hugh Januss]

Livestrong Mission to Kenya

Basically the message is if it is a sport in which you can make money and you don't like doping......don't believe the result no matter what the country in any sport where doping provides a measurable improvement. "Supplements" and "programs" and "preparation" are as much a part of sports these days as training. You can't succeed unless you have them all lined up, whether it is riding, running, tennis, football (both kinds), baseball, basketball, whatever, you can bet everyone is "doing what they need to do" in order to be competetive and bring home that paycheck.
So I mostly watch Curling, the last honest sport.
To say that one Nationality or Race is able to succeed at a fantastic rate in a drug filled sports world without drugs simply because they are "gifted genetically" is to swallow the same cool-aid that the Armstrong crowd has swallowed.

 

[chain chain chain]

Nice deflection, but that is not what was discussed.

Of the top 200 Marathon times ever run only 2 pre-date EPO....2.

You are welcome to believe that dozens of runners suddenly discovered new training methods but most ration people know this is not the case. The marathon world record remained barely changed for lose to 2 decades before suddenly, in the space of a few years, 200 people ran faster......really?

And to paraphrase Billy Crystal:"And doped 5000m, 10 000m, and marathon Kenyans runners are...
Listen, in my church we have relic of alleged Jesus sandal.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Pryuebd bapletry gabblereldy blabettry glopp dweetzer lacheldy bumm.

Huh?.........

 

[MarkvW]

Basically the message is if it is a sport in which you can make money and you don't like doping......don't believe the result no matter what the country in any sport where doping provides a measurable improvement. "Supplements" and "programs" and "preparation" are as much a part of sports these days as training. You can't succeed unless you have them all lined up, whether it is riding, running, tennis, football (both kinds), baseball, basketball, whatever, you can bet everyone is "doing what they need to do" in order to be competetive and bring home that paycheck.
So I mostly watch Curling, the last honest sport.
To say that one Nationality or Race is able to succeed at a fantastic rate in a drug filled sports world without drugs simply because they are "gifted genetically" is to swallow the same cool-aid that the Armstrong crowd has swallowed.

In other words, every athlete who has fantastic success in "a drug filled sports world" is a doper! An honest athlete is incapable of a fantastic rate of success!

Can't say I'd go that far.