Systematic doping of Kenyan runners

[Jeremiah]

"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

The irony in your comment vs your sig.

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.

That's not reality.

The collective morality is NOT advancing and never will. As always people will have to wrestle with their own individual conscience.

Keeping people in the dark helps things improve?

 

[Jeremiah]

"There is a proper dignity and proportion to be observed in the performance of every act of life"

The irony in your comment vs your sig.

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.

Actually no. Write the book Papp. Get it all out. After reading the ridiculous Kloden article in CN the whole sordid mess needs to be exposed. I'm so tired of "code." What a waste of time the Kloden article is.

The last paragraph above is akin to a "Hail Mary." And btw, way to focus on destroying the messenger. You do realize that John Gotti wasn't revealed by choirboys.

While the dopers and their support aren't as degenerate as Gotti, they certainly are vile frauds.

Maybe when people see the pornography of what these dopers are doing, people will get the idea of how repulsive the whole business is. Things like Tyler Hamilton's doping schedule, when that was made public, tend to sober up any potentially rational people although I'm not sure there are many of them left.

 

[JPM London]

Spare us the book and self-promotion, please, all sport needs to move ahead with the hope and constant striving toward developing a cleaner culture....you've already done enough.

With all due respect Mew I disagree...

What you're saying is akin to when McQuaid et al talk about leaving the past in the past and only looking forward - everything is much better today than it was yesterday.

If no one ever bares the truth about the past there's no push for change.

I think Papp would be naive to the extreme if he thought writing the book would be pure positive self-promotion. Look at the name calling dished out to people like Landis and Tyler when they came clean - and they didn't even have dope dealing cases hanging over their heads.

If you're not interested in reading the book, don't. And please dissuade everyone you know from picking it up if that's how you feel.
I for one would LOVE to read it. And I wouldn't mind one bit to pay for it well knowing that some of that money would end up in Joe's pocket afterwards. Man's gotta live after the sentence as well, you know. Much better he creates himself an income from making his story and knowledge as public as possible than not.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I like the way the thread has turned and think a Free book is the only way to go.

In another forum I frequent that has some Pro Significant Others posting regularly. When I posted the simple fact that Real Deal doping is easily accessed, it started all kinds of denials and misdirects. One of the more amazing ones was the claim there was no EPO use/detection research at all.

Therefore, I think if a doping book were heavily referenced to research, a few more deniers will give up. Yes, there would be a hailstorm of criticism and how it "endangers the children" among other things entirely missing the point. But, IF the bigger message survives, namely, everything is out there for a persistent person to glue together into something potentially lethal.

You guys recall that was what Conte did to create his PED's, right? He hired college kids to read research and let him know when they found something.

 

[MarkvW]

I like the way the thread has turned and think a Free book is the only way to go.

In another forum I frequent that has some Pro Significant Others posting regularly. When I posted the simple fact that Real Deal doping is easily accessed, it started all kinds of denials and misdirects. One of the more amazing ones was the claim there was no EPO use/detection research at all.

Therefore, I think if a doping book were heavily referenced to research, a few more deniers will give up. Yes, there would be a hailstorm of criticism and how it "endangers the children" among other things entirely missing the point. But, IF the bigger message survives, namely, everything is out there for a persistent person to glue together into something potentially lethal.

You guys recall that was what Conte did to create his PED's, right? He hired college kids to read research and let him know when they found something.

I am having a difficult time understanding how converting any deniers would effect any positive change in the sport. The deniers are already so out of it, who cares what they think?

The "bigger message" you propose is nothing more than telling people that the untrained use of hormones and other chemical cocktails is dangerous. That's not news. Heck, Papp knew that when he almost killed himself.

It is going to make zero difference with an immortal teenager out to make a dent in the world of cycling. Except that it might be a good "how to dope" book that the kid could use. That's right up Papp's moral alley.

 

[mewmewmew13]

With all due respect Mew I disagree...

What you're saying is akin to when McQuaid et al talk about leaving the past in the past and only looking forward - everything is much better today than it was yesterday.

If no one ever bares the truth about the past there's no push for change.

I think Papp would be naive to the extreme if he thought writing the book would be pure positive self-promotion. Look at the name calling dished out to people like Landis and Tyler when they came clean - and they didn't even have dope dealing cases hanging over their heads.

If you're not interested in reading the book, don't. And please dissuade everyone you know from picking it up if that's how you feel.
I for one would LOVE to read it. And I wouldn't mind one bit to pay for it well knowing that some of that money would end up in Joe's pocket afterwards. Man's gotta live after the sentence as well, you know. Much better he creates himself an income from making his story and knowledge as public as possible than not.

Well, I appreciate the due respect but no, w/r to McQuaid this is not what I'm saying. At. All.

I am certainly not advocating 'leaving the past' in a shroud and covering it up' We need to take a good look at past mistakes and hold the entire history of bad judgement up for scrutiny and hopefully learn from it.

I do have a problem with someone like Papp nominating himself for getting 'a' message out there. A small potatoes sleazy take on how he was 'Mr Big' in the cycling doping scene?? No Thanks.

'Self-promotion' doesn't necessarily mean that a person is interested in 'positive' publicity....what the heck ---do you think all the 'reality show' stars care if their publicity is good or bad?? Ever heard of 'celebrity' and 'limelight'? 15 minutes of 'fame'? the word 'ham'?

I'm betting this has nothing to do with high moral standing and doing the right thing. If someone like him had it in the first place he wouldn't be in the spot he's in.

It's telling to me that Papp needs to post pics of his gf so you 'poor schmucks' can hopefully envy him and feed his ego.
BroDeal summed it up pretty well.

I'm all for getting a message out. Just not by a loser who seems to be striving to cement his place in 'infamy'. Get the heck out of the sport please.

Oh, and JPM LOndon quote:
"I for one would LOVE to read it. And I wouldn't mind one bit to pay for it well knowing that some of that money would end up in Joe's pocket afterwards. Man's gotta live after the sentence as well, you know. Much better he creates himself an income from making his story and knowledge as public as possible than not. "

I'll bet you could just personally sponsor Joe with a part of your hard-earned paycheck ....after what he has had to go through I'm guessing that he would be so grateful for your cash.

 

[spetsa]

Well, I appreciate the due respect but no, w/r to McQuaid this is not what I'm saying. At. All.

I am certainly not advocating 'leaving the past' in a shroud and covering it up' We need to take a good look at past mistakes and hold the entire history of bad judgement up for scrutiny and hopefully learn from it.

I do have a problem with someone like Papp nominating himself for getting 'a' message out there. A small potatoes sleazy take on how he was 'Mr Big' in the cycling doping scene?? No Thanks.

'Self-promotion' doesn't necessarily mean that a person is interested in 'positive' publicity....what the heck ---do you think all the 'reality show' stars care if their publicity is good or bad?? Ever heard of 'celebrity' and 'limelight'? 15 minutes of 'fame'? the word 'ham'?

I'm betting this has nothing to do with high moral standing and doing the right thing. If someone like him had it in the first place he wouldn't be in the spot he's in.

It's telling to me that Papp needs to post pics of his gf so you 'poor schmucks' can hopefully envy him and feed his ego.
BroDeal summed it up pretty well.

I'm all for getting a message out. Just not by a loser who seems to be striving to cement his place in 'infamy'. Get the heck out of the sport please.

Oh, and JPM LOndon quote:
"I for one would LOVE to read it. And I wouldn't mind one bit to pay for it well knowing that some of that money would end up in Joe's pocket afterwards. Man's gotta live after the sentence as well, you know. Much better he creates himself an income from making his story and knowledge as public as possible than not. "

I'll bet you could just personally sponsor Joe with a part of your hard-earned paycheck ....after what he has had to go through I'm guessing that he would be so grateful for your cash.

Mewmew, nothing against you...I am sure you are a very nice person, but since you bet...so will I.

I bet that you went for a ride today wearing the kit (which you paid handsomely for) of a bike shop owner who stated on a very public stage that it was a good thing that LA wasn't outed. Did you put your Dopers Suck shirt that you bought on afterwards?

 

[slowspoke]

I for one, am getting tired of the Papp bashing here. I think if you haven't been a) in his shoes or b) a professional athlete, you you all get off your high horses. What to you looks like a black and white issue, gets awfully murky when your in the front line.
Have I doped? No. But I would have, were it not for a career ending injury. And after 10 years of training 5 hours a day but still not being good enough to achive my hopes and dreams from since being a small boy. Then yes, I would have. No question, as an athlete you do what it takes. That's how you win. By doing what no one else will do. Firstly by training more than the next guy, then training harder and then what?
If you are not that one in a millian guy, your options are limited. I was in a sense lucky to be in an environment where doping was never discussed or contemplated and that is what I hope sport should strive for. I've already lost my fond childhood memories of cycling to dope and that is unforgiveable. I don't want to say the same to my children or have them in the position to having to dope to achive their dreams.
I guess I'm just saying unless you've sacrificed as much and been as young and stupid as Papp you should leave him alone. I'm not sure, if I was in his shoes I'd have done anything different. And yes, I am aware of his full story.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...I guess I'm just saying unless you've sacrificed as much and been as young and stupid as Papp you should leave him alone. I'm not sure, if I was in his shoes I'd have done anything different. And yes, I am aware of his full story.

Bingo. Ideally, the stupid part is over.

 

[mewmewmew13]

Mewmew, nothing against you...I am sure you are a very nice person, but since you bet...so will I.

I bet that you went for a ride today wearing the kit (which you paid handsomely for) of a bike shop owner who stated on a very public stage that it was a good thing that LA wasn't outed. Did you put your Dopers Suck shirt that you bought on afterwards?

Well don't play poker for a living.
I went for a run. It's hot and really windy here today.

..and I'm one of those people who can't stand to pay full price for clothing/gear etc and won't...in addition to 'that store' kit which I got for a discount or would not have bought it, I have worked my bum off so that I can receive other kit and gear for free or 'pro purchase' prices , and no I do NOT own a 'dopers suck' item of clothing....I'm not a sheep, thank you.

btw I know Brandon and he is a nice person and wins without resorting to 'whatever it takes' methods.
W/r to what was 'quoted' in that article I'm not sure it came out exactly like he stated...I don't really think that sounds like him....you know how things get misquoted or taken out of context in print. I haven't personally asked him about that, but I'm sure you could send him an email and question his actual views about it ...he's pretty easy to get ahold of.

slowspoke, sorry about your cycling experiences...that's a drag.

As far as worrying about the Papp bashing, he is the one who insists on putting himself all over this forum and elsewhere....look at all his blog sigs and ways you can follow him. If he really wanted to be 'left alone' someone like you might gently let him know that this is the wrong approach.

BTW you don't know how much anyone 'has sacrificed'.
I have raised my boys to always 'do the right thing' even when you know no one is watching. It's called integrity.
I don't believe in making a folk hero out of someone who doesn't have any.

 

[MarkvW]

I agree that Papp should be "let alone" as a Clinic participant.

But when he starts talking about himself as a doping "catalyst" and tells non-abusive critics to **** off, then he's fair game. The self-promoting, anti-doping crusader posturing can reasonably be challenged.

 

[slowspoke]

slowspoke, sorry about your cycling experiences...that's a drag.

As far as worrying about the Papp bashing, he is the one who insists on putting himself all over this forum and elsewhere....look at all his blog sigs and ways you can follow him. If he really wanted to be 'left alone' someone like you might gently let him know that this is the wrong approach.

BTW you don't know how much anyone 'has sacrificed'.
I have raised my boys to always 'do the right thing' even when you know no one is watching. It's called integrity.
I don't believe in making a folk hero out of someone who doesn't have any.[/QUOTE]

Thanks m13,

I should point out I'm not from a cycling background. I'm 6"5 so it was never really an option for me. But I did reach a very high level in my chosen sport.
But I'm also 34 so I first started watching/ cycling in 89 so for almost all of my life Ive been watching a lie and I don't want my kids to have to follow the same path. I should also add I saw enough dreams shattered because of the same problems Papp faced. Im just glad I didn't have to make those choices. I don't know him but I do know where he has been and that's the point I wanted to make. Now I stop hijacking this thread

 

[DirtyWorks]

I agree that Papp should be "let alone" as a Clinic participant.

But when he starts talking about himself as a doping "catalyst" and tells non-abusive critics to **** off, then he's fair game. The self-promoting, anti-doping crusader posturing can reasonably be challenged.

I did not read Joe's idea as a way to elevate his stature as some have claimed. I read the original intent as a way to clearly show the widespread availability and relative ease of doing it. The controversial message being, it's as close as you want it to be and aggressive denial isn't going to make it go away.

 

[workingclasshero]

sorry boys, you do know some stuff re: doping in cycling but are for the most part well off the pace when it comes to running and Kenyan culture.

Not saying there aren't any Kenyans doping but most stuff people have been trying to pass off as insight here is well off the mark

 

[Race Radio]

sorry boys, you do know some stuff re: doping in cycling but are for the most part well off the pace when it comes to running and Kenyan culture.

Not saying there aren't any Kenyans doping but most stuff people have been trying to pass off as insight here is well off the mark

Which part? The part about how so many Kenyans work with questionable agents, coaches and doctors? The part about how easy it is to get EPO and other dope? Or the part about their Hct's being so high? r maybe the sudden drop in times after the introduction of EPO?

 

[JPM London]

Which part? The part about how so many Kenyans work with questionable agents, coaches and doctors? The part about how easy it is to get EPO and other dope? Or the part about their Hct's being so high? r maybe the sudden drop in times after the introduction of EPO?

Yes, all of those... Everybody knows that doping only works in cycling - all other sports are far too technically based for there to be any benefit. This is particularly so in athletics.

For long distance running I can highly recommend the books "It's all about the bare feet" and "Every sneaker counts" - after reading that you'll never question the running myths again...

 

[Jeremiah]

Sanctimonious?

Well don't play poker for a living.
I went for a run. It's hot and really windy here today.

..and I'm one of those people who can't stand to pay full price for clothing/gear etc and won't...in addition to 'that store' kit which I got for a discount or would not have bought it, I have worked my bum off so that I can receive other kit and gear for free or 'pro purchase' prices , and no I do NOT own a 'dopers suck' item of clothing....I'm not a sheep, thank you.

btw I know Brandon and he is a nice person and wins without resorting to 'whatever it takes' methods.
W/r to what was 'quoted' in that article I'm not sure it came out exactly like he stated...I don't really think that sounds like him....you know how things get misquoted or taken out of context in print. I haven't personally asked him about that, but I'm sure you could send him an email and question his actual views about it ...he's pretty easy to get ahold of.

slowspoke, sorry about your cycling experiences...that's a drag.

As far as worrying about the Papp bashing, he is the one who insists on putting himself all over this forum and elsewhere....look at all his blog sigs and ways you can follow him. If he really wanted to be 'left alone' someone like you might gently let him know that this is the wrong approach.

BTW you don't know how much anyone 'has sacrificed'.
I have raised my boys to always 'do the right thing' even when you know no one is watching. It's called integrity.
I don't believe in making a folk hero out of someone who doesn't have any.

Most everyone is corrupted in small or large ways. It's called 'being human.'

 

[workingclasshero]

Which part? The part about how so many Kenyans work with questionable agents, coaches and doctors? The part about how easy it is to get EPO and other dope? Or the part about their Hct's being so high? r maybe the sudden drop in times after the introduction of EPO?

Several parts. I can point to a few of yours seeing as you're the one replying here.

Like the point about EPO being so easy to get hold of, as anyone who's ever been to Iten will know, getting hold of it there is no easy thing, who do you want to administer it and not least pay for it? The dodgy doctor in the german documentary was based in Nairobi far away from both Iten and N'Gong btw.

Also you make a major oversimplification about the drop in times + what do you know about their HCT's anyway? I know of the Saltin quote but it is a bit of a joke tbh if that's the back-up you have for your arrogant tone.

 

[workingclasshero]

Yes, all of those... Everybody knows that doping only works in cycling - all other sports are far too technically based for there to be any benefit. This is particularly so in athletics.

For long distance running I can highly recommend the books "It's all about the bare feet" and "Every sneaker counts" - after reading that you'll never question the running myths again...

oh dear. Look kid, if you want to be toying with sarcasm you really should start off by demonstrating an ability to read and understand other people's posts. I suggest babysteps for you kid. No one starts off in a F1 car you know.

I do appreciate that it must be difficult to read though, what with your tounge firmly up Race Radio's brown eye and all.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Possibly relevant.

Q: Do you think that athletics should introduce individual blood passports?
Professor Bengt Saltin: - Absolutely. But the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) does not approve the method. They see a problem with it because there are many ethnic groups represented in athletics and you do not know if certain groups have naturally higher Hb values ​​than Europeans. But they could perform the required work reasonably fast if the will existed. There are probably many people who want to, but the board is not active. If they set aside a few million, they could make a good survey and thus produce reasonable Hb-values​​.

 

[Race Radio]

Possibly relevant.

Q: Do you think that athletics should introduce individual blood passports?
Professor Bengt Saltin: - Absolutely. But the International Association of Athletics Federations (IAAF) does not approve the method. They see a problem with it because there are many ethnic groups represented in athletics and you do not know if certain groups have naturally higher Hb values ​​than Europeans. But they could perform the required work reasonably fast if the will existed. There are probably many people who want to, but the board is not active. If they set aside a few million, they could make a good survey and thus produce reasonable Hb-values​​.

Very relevant, and ridiculous

Ethnic variance means nothing in the Passport. It establishes a baseline and then tracks the changes in that baseline.

 

[Race Radio]

Several parts. I can point to a few of yours seeing as you're the one replying here.

Like the point about EPO being so easy to get hold of, as anyone who's ever been to Iten will know, getting hold of it there is no easy thing, who do you want to administer it and not least pay for it? The dodgy doctor in the german documentary was based in Nairobi far away from both Iten and N'Gong btw.

Also you make a major oversimplification about the drop in times + what do you know about their HCT's anyway? I know of the Saltin quote but it is a bit of a joke tbh if that's the back-up you have for your arrogant tone.

You didn't even read the link did you?

 

[workingclasshero]

You didn't even read the link did you?

That's your answer? Sweet jesus.

what link are you on about anyway? I've gone through the thread and I could not find any links provided by you.

there was however a link to the documentary on here put forward by someone else but it didn't work. My bet is you haven't seen the documentary yourself and that your German isn't that good anyway.

For those of us who do understand the language; who have seen the docuM and who know Seppelt, it is obvious this piece of work is far below the standard we've come to expect from him and far below the standard that should be a minimum from investigative journalism.

Seppelt seemingly just did this on the go, not enough research having been done into neither Kenyan culture or running.

* Edit: Susan, a bit silly sending people pm's saying they've been banned and why when they can't read them - b-e-c-a-u-s-e they're banned. And your reason for my banning was laughable. Not a single naughty word in the post you quoted.

 

[noddy69]

Mo Farrah certainly seems to have benefitted from training Kenyan style.
From being unable to qualify for olympic final and being ok to becoming the favourite all done with the help of kenyan training.

Im not up to speed on running so just thought this was interesting. Make of it what you will.
http://www.spikesmag.com/features/mofarahonhisafricantrainingtrip.aspx

 

[cprior]

Mo Farrah

About two years ago he switched sponsors and moved to the US, to the exclusive training group at Nike headquarters that is. That's where his rise happened.

His agent and Nike placed him perfectly for that olympic cycle, he gets tons of coverage. Hats off for that perfectly executed marketing move!


Of course that training group is all clean and just about the latest technological gadgets, no one ever tested positive and I am sure they get tested a lot.