Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Red Rick]

I completely agree. It is just absurd how he can probably produce 50-100 watts more than his rivals (Vingegaard, Roglic, Remco, Landa).

We have truly arrived in fantasyland.

 

[Cycling111]

Yup, it's more like big 3.
MVDP gives him a battle in the classics (okay, some of them).
Vingegaard gives him a battle in the GT's.
Evenepoel probably has the ceiling to give him a battle as well but it's yet to prove that.

I think only in Liège and Amstel, especially if Pogacar arrives tired from Flanders-Roubaix.
And at the WC, Pogacar does have a bit of a disadvantage with the national team. We'll see how Slovenia manages to control this year. After last year they'll be closely watched, and Belgium is very powerful.

In Lombardia, I see more distance between them. Lombardia is Pogacar's race.

In the Tour, Remco is currently one step behind to competing with Pogacar and Vingegaard.
Right now, in GT I think Remco is a rival for Roglic and Ayuso?. I still have my doubts about Ayuso. If he can't wub a 36 Roglic, he can forget about the Tour in a couple of years.

 

[Cycling111]

If Pogacar wins the Tour-Vuelta, Big 3 is reduced to Big 2

I think there's clearly a Big One. Hinault won less Classics than Moser, Moser won 3 Roubaix against HInault, but everyone considers Hinault the second-best in history, or third if Coppi is second.
There was no discussion about who was the best of his generation, Hinault or the best classic riders like Moser.

The same thing happened with Merckx and De Vlaeminck. Merckx is considered the Big One of his generation, and later the best of all time. De Vlaeminck was the best Classics rider, but there was no discussion possible because of how complete Merckx was.

Pogacar is the only one who is simultaneously a rival of Van der Poel and Vingegaard. VDP and Vingegaard aren't rivals in anything. Not even Remco, who is one of the most complete riders, has ever competed with Van der Poel beyond the WC

One: Pogacar, everyone's rival
Second: VDP and Vingegard

I don't know where to place Remco, he is complete but not compete against VDP and in what he competes with Vingegaard he is inferior.

Third: Remco (or second and half) and Roglic

Van Aert is currently out.

 

[Peyroteo94]

We have truly arrived in fantasyland.

Do you even know he is also (at least) 4-5 kilos heavier than most of them? Or do you just want to mock for no reason?

PdB:
Pogacar produced someting around 450 watts (weight: 65 kg)
Remco produced 400 watts (weight: 61 kg)
Vingegaard - 385 watts (weight: 58 kg)
Landa - 385 watts (weight: 60 kg).
I don't see where is the fantasyland

 

[Netserk]

Do you even know he is also (at least) 4-5 kilos heavier than most of them? Or do you just want to mock for no reason?

PdB:
Pogacar produced someting around 450 watts (weight: 65 kg)
Remco produced 400 watts (weight: 61 kg)
Vingegaard - 385 watts (weight: 58 kg)
Landa - 385 watts (weight: 60 kg).
I don't see where is the fantasyland

Do you base absolute watts on weight-standardised, altitude adjusted W/kg estimates?

I think the actual difference between Pogi and Vingegaard then was rather in the 40-50 W range.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think only in Liège and Amstel, especially if Pogacar arrives tired from Flanders-Roubaix.
And at the WC, Pogacar does have a bit of a disadvantage with the national team. We'll see how Slovenia manages to control this year. After last year they'll be closely watched, and Belgium is very powerful.

In Lombardia, I see more distance between them. Lombardia is Pogacar's race.

In the Tour, Remco is currently one step behind to competing with Pogacar and Vingegaard.
Right now, in GT I think Remco is a rival for Roglic and Ayuso?. I still have my doubts about Ayuso. If he can't wub a 36 Roglic, he can forget about the Tour in a couple of years.

You look to Belgium and it is almost unfair to compare both teams. However, UAE is also a very strong team and Soudal not so much.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Do you base absolute watts on weight-standardised, altitude adjusted W/kg estimates?

I think the actual difference between Pogi and Vingegaard then was rather in the 40-50 W range.

It doesn't matter, there is no need to mock someone specially when what I said is not that dellusional. Buitrago was 7th or 8th in PdB and weighs 58 kg. It is not stupid to say Pogacar probably produced 80 watts more than him. In fact, it is very possible this really happened.

 

[James M]

As for Pogacar, it’s very obvious based on the numbers that he picked up where he left off end of last year and is already stronger this year compared to the same time last year, significant even. While it’s not a given, the odds are much lower that he will be significantly better rather than worse even to last year.

However, something could still happen, in that sense, dismissing that possibility sure. As for the other scenario, objectively, that’s naive at this point. At MSR, he produced absolutely crazy town numbers—significantly above last year followed up with several more—and one can only imagine the power he put out in Roubaix relative to his weight. If nothing happens, he will smash his own records, and absolutely no one should be surprised!

 

[Cycling111]

You look to Belgium and it is almost unfair to compare both teams. However, UAE is also a very strong team and Soudal not so much.

That's true, but in a TDF Remco isn't even the second favorite. He just needs to follow wheels and have two or three teammates. Being the third contender, he doesn't need more.

In a WC, Pogacar isn't a third favorite who can go on wheel because he's inferior.
They are two totally different circumstances.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Took a quick look to AGR route and kruisberg - Eyserbosweg combo is where Pogacar will make his move. I'm not that sure he will drop everyone, maybe he will wait for Pidcock and then brake him later.

 

[AmRacer]

Took a quick look to AGR route and kruisberg - Eyserbosweg combo is where Pogacar will make his move. I'm not that sure he will drop everyone, maybe he will wait for Pidcock and then brake him later.

And Remco?

 

[scribers]

I hope he comes firing out of the cannon but he’ll likely trying to pick up some race days

 

[Peyroteo94]

And Remco?

I think positioning is a very important skill in AGR and Remco is returning right now to racing

 

[SHAD0W93]

It will increase more after the Ardennes if he does Amstel and Fleche, which he didn't do last year, but then he'll lose points after the Giro. Then, if he wins both the Tour and the Vuelta, then it would increase again to the post-Ardennes total.

Plus racing CdD this year will get some extra points. Then next year if everything lines up and he wins MSR and PR it can increase the score to crazy heights.

 

[SHAD0W93]

We have truly arrived in fantasyland.

Don’t wait in line 30-50 mins for Peter Pan’s Flight. Not worth it, especially when it breaks down frequently. We’ve had a 20-30 min and 30-40 min wait for the ride since it was the last one in the park our son hadn’t gone on. The best ride in the land is probably Mr. Toad’s Wild Ride but Snow White and Pinocchio are nice.

 

[ppanther92]

We have truly arrived in fantasyland.

Well, he is for sure a bit heavier than the listed riders.

 

[Oldman]

We've seen Evenepoel vs Pogacar in a GT only once, so I don't know what you base your statement on.
Plus, I don't think anyone could foresee Vingegaard beating Pogacar twice when the dane was 25, so unless you have some data suggesting that Evenepoel has no room for improvement you can't just write-off any chance of him improving.

And, as I said in my previous comment, it's not a given that Pogacar will reach last year's level as well.

Not a given? Seems like he's there now. Maybe a little early.

 

[Cycling111]

I can't believe there are any doubts.

Pogacar has finished on the podium in every GT since the 2019 Vuelta. His worst result was third in his first GT , since then he's either won or finished second. We've never seen Pogacar like Remco in the 2023 Vuelta without a chance of a podium.

I don't know what will happen in the future, but at present, we can't consider Remco a GT rider on the same level as Pogacar and Vingegaard.

I also don't know if Ayuso will evolve, but right now, I wouldn't consider him a GT rival. Perhaps Ayuso will be in 2028, or not.

We have to judge by what we've seen, and the reality is that we've never seen Remco be a GT rider at their level.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Well, he is for sure a bit heavier than the listed riders.

Don't be logical...

 

[Peyroteo94]

We've seen Evenepoel vs Pogacar in a GT only once, so I don't know what you base your statement on.
Plus, I don't think anyone could foresee Vingegaard beating Pogacar twice when the dane was 25, so unless you have some data suggesting that Evenepoel has no room for improvement you can't just write-off any chance of him improving.

And, as I said in my previous comment, it's not a given that Pogacar will reach last year's level as well.

Vingegaard showed a similar level in some mountain stages when they both had their first duel (2021). Remco never showed any level similar to Pogacar in the mountains. You put Pogacar 2022 (TdF shape) against Remco 2022 (Vuelta shape) and Remco gets smoked. The difference is very big.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I can't believe there are any doubts.

Pogacar has finished on the podium in every GT since the 2019 Vuelta. His worst result was third in his first GT , since then he's either won or finished second. We've never seen Pogacar like Remco in the 2023 Vuelta without a chance of a podium.

I don't know what will happen in the future, but at present, we can't consider Remco a GT rider on the same level as Pogacar and Vingegaard.

I also don't know if Ayuso will evolve, but right now, I wouldn't consider him a GT rival. Perhaps Ayuso will be in 2028, or not.

We have to judge by what we've seen, and the reality is that we've never seen Remco be a GT rider at their level.

Last year, he was more than 9 minutes behind Pogacar. We should ask if Remco is better than Roglic because in my mind he isn't. At least until now (GTs).

 

[Cycling111]

Last year, he was more than 9 minutes behind Pogacar. We should ask if Remco is better than Roglic because in my mind he isn't. At least until now (GTs).

I didn't want to limit this opinion to the last Tour to not reinforce the idea that meeting in a one GT isn't enough.

They don't need to meet more.
It´s obvious, and with what we have seen so far we can say that they are not at the same level in GT.

Looking at a more extreme example, does Pogacar have to meet Vlasov in a GT to know if he's better? It would be enough to compare their GT careers.

Remco is a great rider and can improve. I can't know if he'll make a leap this year or win a Tour in 2028. But to deny the obvious because they've only met once is to deceive oneself.

By the way, Remco met Vinegaard in the 2023 Vuelta; he wasn't podium.

Pogacar's worst GT finish was a third at the age of 20; since then, he's been first or second.
How can anyone doubt that someone who hasn't always been on the podium is on par with someone who has always been?

Ayuso isn't at Pogacar's level today. This sentence is incorrect because Ayuso´s never confronted Pogacar in a GT?
If he wins a Tour in 2028, we'll use a time machine to say he was . It doesn't work that way; we have to evaluate his level based on what has happened so far.

 

[Pantani_lives]

He'll reach an all-time high after the Flèche Wallone. After that he has to win LBL again to keep the same amount of points. Then he'll unavoidably lose points, because he isn't doing the Giro like last year.

 

[YavorD]

Vingegaard showed a similar level in some mountain stages when they both had their first duel (2021). Remco never showed any level similar to Pogacar in the mountains. You put Pogacar 2022 (TdF shape) against Remco 2022 (Vuelta shape) and Remco gets smoked. The difference is very big.

People improve and can improve, you know?
Put Pogacar 2022 and Evenepoel 2024 and the difference isn't that big.
I never said that on 2024 level Evenepoel has a chance against Pogacar.
All I said was, and I quote myself, IF Pogacar doesn't reach his 2024 level (which is not a given) and if Evenepoel improves, which is possible, if not likely, then we MAY have a battle.

If Pogacar is able to reach his 2024 level, it's pretty much over. But there's no way we can know that.

 

[Cycling111]

People improve and can improve, you know?
Put Pogacar 2022 and Evenepoel 2024 and the difference isn't that big.
I never said that on 2024 level Evenepoel has a chance against Pogacar.
All I said was, and I quote myself, IF Pogacar doesn't reach his 2024 level (which is not a given) and if Evenepoel improves, which is possible, if not likely, then we MAY have a battle.

If Pogacar is able to reach his 2024 level, it's pretty much over. But there's no way we can know that.

That comparison isn't real.
Roglic moved more w/k in 2024 Vuelta than Roglic 2020-21. The 2024 Roglic with 35 years isn't better than Roglic 2020 or 21 . And Pogacar is better now than he was at 21 in the 2020 Tour.
Not because simply w/k, but because of his superiority over rivals

The numbers for the entire peloton are improving year after year.

Based on times, Cancellara would´ve finished last in last year's PR . Obviously, Cancellara wasn't worse than the entire current peloton.

You have to compare what Pogacar and Remco have done in the GTs in terms of results and difference to rivals. Not in terms of hill climb times, because you might find that Landa has better hill climb times than Contador, and when they competed, he wasn't better than Contador

You can't say that to conclude that Remco has the level of Pogacar in GT.
Not even Remco considers it

I find it strange that we have to argue that Remco isn´tt at the level of Pogacar, or Vingegaard, in GT.