Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Charlyghoul]

This is such a weird post in my eyes... I could also say that Pogacar has beaten Chris Froome in 2021 Tour de France. He has beaten Grand Tour winners like Geraint Thomas, Vincenzo Nibali, Tom Dumoulin, Richard Carapaz, Egan Bernal, Jai Hindley, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Nairo Quintana, Sepp Kuss, Remco Evenepoel or Fabio Aru.

Every generation has its Grand Tour winners, so it doesnt make a difference at all. You can cherry-pick in each generation. In every generation you have to fight against top guys. No win is worth more or less because it was in another year. The rider is not responsible for his opponents, he can only win against the guys that are next to him at the start line.

So then why can’t people accept the new generation isn’t better ? If they comparable ?

Look at who Merckx beat in his first tour win:
2nd, Pingeon- tour / vuelta winner (prime)
3rd Poulidor -prime
4th Gimondi - won everything (prime)

In his first giro win
2nd Adorni - giro winner/ world champ- prime
3rd Gimondi - prime

His vuelta win
2nd Ocana - tour/vuelta winner - prime
3rd Thevenet - tour winner - prime

I don’t care that half the peloton might have been Belgian ‘farmers’ that level of competition at the top end couldn’t be better.
Merckx had better competition than Anquetil, Hinault and Indurain, he was still the best.

Pogs era is harder in some ways, but the competition is poor. He’s had one realistic winner to contend with.
Look at his Giro win, a 38 year old Thomas the only noteworthy name in the top ten.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pereiros other three top ten were all 10th and with an average time loss of around 17 1/2 minute. When 10th in 2004 he didn’t finish top 10 on a single mountain stage. When 10th in 2005 he was 24th heading into the last week and gained like 13-15 minutes in 3 breakaways. When 10th in 2007 he was top 10 on one mountain stage, a 9th place.
And of course when he won he was gifted more than 30 minutes in a break on a flat stage.

Everyone who watched those tours know that Pereiro wasn’t really that good. But I guess you either forgot or don’t care just to try to score a cheap point.

(Kuss also been 8th in the Vuelta, gained less than 3 minutes in the break and was legit a top 3 climber in the Vuelta he won. Of course gifted, but much less than Pereiro. He would’ve also finished the Tour that year in the top 10 without a massive crash on stage 20)

Pereiro was like Guillaume Martin. Always found the perfect break to get back in the top10

 

[Peyroteo94]

So then why can’t people accept the new generation isn’t better ? If they comparable ?

Look at who Merckx beat in his first tour win:
2nd, Pingeon- tour / vuelta winner (prime)
3rd Poulidor -prime
4th Gimondi - won everything (prime)

In his first giro win
2nd Adorni - giro winner/ world champ- prime
3rd Gimondi - prime

His vuelta win
2nd Ocana - tour/vuelta winner - prime
3rd Thevenet - tour winner - prime

I don’t care that half the peloton might have been Belgian ‘farmers’ that level of competition at the top end couldn’t be better.
Merckx had better competition than Anquetil, Hinault and Indurain, he was still the best.

Pogs era is harder in some ways, but the competition is poor. He’s had one realistic winner to contend with.
Look at his Giro win, a 38 year old Thomas the only noteworthy name in the top ten.

It's like "why people can't accept 1+1=3?"

 

[Charlyghoul]

It's like "why people can't accept 1+1=3?"

Look at Merckx last giro win , 5 giro winners in the top ten + Fuente a Vuelta winner and climbing great.
Not bad for a bunch of farmers. Stacked, the best era of all time.
Pogs win - 38 year old Thomas and the mule pack

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pog can get near Merckx , maybe.
The simple truth is that Eddy was the best to ever do it and he did it in the strongest era there ever was.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Look at Merckx last giro win , 5 giro winners in the top ten + Fuente a Vuelta winner and climbing great.
Not bad for a bunch of farmers. Stacked, the best era of all time.
Pogs win - 38 year old Thomas and the mule pack

You didn't even follow Merckx's era so you don't really know how good was the peloton back in those days.

 

[AmRacer]

Pog can get near Merckx , maybe.
The simple truth is that Eddy was the best to ever do it and he did it in the strongest era there ever was.

Pogi is better than Merckx and the stronges era is the present one. Merckx era was weak.

 

[Charlyghoul]

You didn't even follow Merckx's era so you don't really know how good was the peloton back in those days.

Any really cycling fan knows how good it was.
Poulidor, Fuente, Gimondi, Ocana , Zoetemelk they were all great, (all prime as well)

 

[Charlyghoul]

Pogi is better than Merckx and the stronges era is the present one. Merckx era was weak.

2 horse race now, outside of those two and van der poel on the flat it’s dreadful, no strength in depth, no competition whatsoever

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

So then why can’t people accept the new generation isn’t better ? If they comparable ?

Look at who Merckx beat in his first tour win:
2nd, Pingeon- tour / vuelta winner (prime)
3rd Poulidor -prime
4th Gimondi - won everything (prime)

Your problem is that the argumentasjon use for Merckx and against todays era is basically the same arguments that could be used in favor of this generaton.

In Pogs first Tour he beat absolute prime Roglic, a 5 time GT winner, Olympic Champion, monument winner and one of the best one week stage racers of all time.

You laugh of Richie Porte, but his GT palmares is not much different from Kloden that you talked big about. And he’s one of the better one week stage racers of the 2000s.

You talked about lack of consistency among today’s riders, but Landa has 10 time finishes a grand tour in top 8. Mas has 4 GT podiums and 8 top 6. Lopez has 2 podiums and 7 times top 8 in GT.

Dumoulin is a grand tour winner and a world champion. Rigoberto Uran was 3 times second in a Grand Tour and 10 times top 10. Adam Yates has a GT podium and were top 10 7 times. Caruso has a GT podium and 6 top 10.

There is a lot of consistent great GC riders in this list, and if you were consistent with your arguments you would say that Pogacar beat a hell of a lot of great riders to win his first Tour.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

2 horse race now, outside of those two and van der poel on the flat it’s dreadful, no strength in depth, no competition whatsoever

This basically means that you would argue that the level would have been much better if just Pogacar, Vingegaard and Van der Poel rode slower and got beaten sometimes

 

[Charlyghoul]

Imagine suggesting a giro top ten with 6 gt winners, 3 world champions and 2 hour record holders is worse than
Pog, 38 Thomas, and Ben o’ connor
😆

 

[Charlyghoul]

Your problem is that the argumentasjon use for Merckx and against todays era is basically the same arguments that could be used in favor of this generaton.

In Pogs first Tour he beat absolute prime Roglic, a 5 time GT winner, Olympic Champion, monument winner and one of the best one week stage racers of all time.

You laugh of Richie Porte, but his GT palmares is not much different from Kloden that you talked big about. And he’s one of the better one week stage racers of the 2000s.

You talked about lack of consistency among today’s riders, but Landa has 10 time finishes a grand tour in top 8. Mas has 4 GT podiums and 8 top 6. Lopez has 2 podiums and 7 times top 8 in GT.

Dumoulin is a grand tour winner and a world champion. Rigoberto Uran was 3 times second in a Grand Tour and 10 times top 10. Adam Yates has a GT podium and were top 10 7 times. Caruso has a GT podium and 6 top 10.

There is a lot of consistent great GC riders in this list, and if you were consistent with your arguments you would say that Pogacar beat a hell of a lot of great riders to win his first Tour.

Still weak.
Roglic has never won it. He’s worse than Poulidor who didn’t either.
Zoetemelk, Pingeon, Ocana , Gimondi, Thevenet, multiple gt winners, all prime
Blows the current generation out of the water

 

[Peyroteo94]

Any really cycling fan knows how good it was.
Poulidor, Fuente, Gimondi, Ocana , Zoetemelk they were all great, (all prime as well)

Discrepancy between amateurs and pros were so big that only 4 or 5 guys won everything.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Still weak.
Roglic has never won it. He’s worse than Poulidor who didn’t either.

This is just something you make up and it’s just your subjective meaning.

Zoetemelk, Thevenet, multiple gt winners, all prime
Blows the current generation out of the water

This shows me that you fail to contextualize it. Merkxc won his last tour in 1974. Neither Thevenet and Zoetemelk were Grand Tour winners at the time and one can therefore argue that they weren’t close to their prime.

At the time of Eddys last Tour win, Zoetemelks palmares was nothing special compared to for example Almeida now. He had his peak (long) after Eddy won the Tour. Thevenet didn’t take part in the first Tour Merckx won, he was 35th, 4th, 9th and DNF’ed in the ones Merckx won. It’s history revision to pretend he was at his peak during Eddys prime.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

Zoetemelk, Pingeon, Ocana , Gimondi, Thevenet, multiple gt winners, all prime
Blows the current generation out of the water

As Vingegaard has won 2 Tours, he alone blows Zoetemelk, Pingeon, Ocana and Gimondi out of the water by following your arguing.

 

[Berniece]

You didn't even follow Merckx's era so you don't really know how good was the peloton back in those days.

Yeah Merckx career was never properly documented with books and documentaries.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Discrepancy between amateurs and pros were so big that only 4 or 5 guys won everything.

There were 6 even in just one giro
You don’t what you’re talking about

This is just something you make up and it’s just your subjective meaning.


This shows me that you fail to contextualize it. Merkxc won his last tour in 1974. Neither Thevenet and Zoetemelk were Grand Tour winners at the time and one can therefore argue that they weren’t close to their prime.

At the time of Eddys last Tour win, Zoetemelks palmares was nothing special compared to for example Almeida now. He had his peak (long) after Eddy won the Tour. Thevenet didn’t take part in the first Tour Merckx won, he was 35th, 4th, 9th and DNF’ed in the ones Merckx won. It’s history revision to pretend he was at his peak during Eddys prime.

thevenet is weakest of those.
Still has a comparable plamares to current Vingo ,

 

[AmRacer]

2 horse race now, outside of those two and van der poel on the flat it’s dreadful, no strength in depth, no competition whatsoever

The competition is much stronger now compared with back in the days.

 

[Charlyghoul]

The competition is much stronger now compared with back in the days.

You’re just repeating yourself.
The kind of tours or giros with multiple potential winners in their prime has been and gone.

Giros or vueltas now usually have one good rider, often not capable of winnng the tour.
In Merckx day the giros and vueltas were much stronger fields, not to mention the tour.

We may as well just watch Vingo and Pog race round on their own, rest of the peloton is meaningless.

 

[Lorzenz08]

You know someome is probably the GOAT when you have someone who is obsessed trying to prove he is not

 

[Charlyghoul]

You know someome is probably the GOAT when you have someone who is obsessed trying to prove he is not

You mean like so many implying Eddy isn’t? Definitely the goat

 

[Peyroteo94]

You’re just repeating yourself.
The kind of tours or giros with multiple potential winners in their prime has been and gone.

Giros or vueltas now usually have one good rider, often not capable of winnng the tour.
In Merckx day the giros and vueltas were much stronger fields, not to mention the tour.

We may as well just watch Vingo and Pog race round on their own, rest of the peloton is meaningless.

Quintana is a multiple GT winner and Pogacar is beating him in GTs.
Carapaz
Yates
Roglic
Vingegaard
Remco
Bernal

 

[AmRacer]

You’re just repeating yourself.
The kind of tours or giros with multiple potential winners in their prime has been and gone.

Giros or vueltas now usually have one good rider, often not capable of winnng the tour.
In Merckx day the giros and vueltas were much stronger fields, not to mention the tour.'

We may as well just watch Vingo and Pog race round on their own, rest of the peloton is meaningless.

It's you repeating yourself.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Quintana is a multiple GT winner and Pogacar is beating him in GTs.
Carapaz
Yates
Roglic
Vingegaard
Remco
Bernal

Besides Vingegaard the best riders there are not close to the best riders of Merckx’ time

There’s plenty of evidence that pou-pou, joop, Ocana or Gimondi would at least finish on the podium in today’s era.
Only Vingegaard , possibly Roglic when he was young could do the same in Merckx.
Much better strength in depth in those days