Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[hayneplane]

That the riders who won them , would still be winning them now.
Are you just going to ignore how poor international riders have been at the tour? And classics?
How can you argue that the peloton is higher quality now? It makes no difference how many countries are in the peloton if they lack talent to win.
This talent that you say is everywhere, where is it?

A Kenyan born and raised rider has won 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 2 Vuelta

 

[Charlyghoul]

A Kenyan born and raised rider has won 4 Tours, 1 Giro and 2 Vuelta

*British*

 

[hayneplane]

The thing is that today's peloton is so much better and specialised, just a few GT winners have multiple monuments.
Back in the days, it was much more common.

This is how it is, not the other way around.

There were riders in the more recent past who only dabbled with RVV deep into their 30s such as Valverde and Nibali and still showed they clearly belonged there and could have contended had they gone for it in their prime years.

 

[AmRacer]

There were riders in the more recent past who only dabbled with RVV deep into their 30s such as Valverde and Nibali and still showed they clearly belonged there and could have contended had they gone for it in their prime years.

Just a few GT winners....

 

[Peyroteo94]

*British*

He lived in South Africa

 

[Charlyghoul]

He lived in South Africa

British parents, he’s still British.
Besides, the ‘international peloton is better’ argument has a lot bigger issues than whether Froome is African or British.

 

[HashRouge]

Primoz aint getting a win and six 2nds in the Merckx /Hinault era.
He’s podiumed once in his own era.

Zoetemelk didn't get a win in the Mercx era either though. Both his Vuelta and Tour victories came after Eddy retired, no? And Hinault had to withdraw through injury in the Tour that Zoetemelk won. The six seconds are a bit irrelevant given that he didn't beat either Mercx or Hinault to get them.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Zoetemelk didn't get a win in the Mercx era either though. Both his Vuelta and Tour victories came after Eddy retired, no? And Hinault had to withdraw through injury in the Tour that Zoetemelk won. The six seconds are a bit irrelevant given that he didn't beat either Mercx or Hinault to get them.

Well I meant that if you replaced Joop with Primoz I don’t think Primoz is achieving that level of consistency, like i said he’s only podiumed once in his own era.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

look at the top ten in the 2000s, you had the same guys, Valverde, Sastre, Kloden, Mancebo, Ulrich, Pererio.
The gc contenders were stronger even if they couldn’t usually compete for the top one or two places.

Hahaha you actually mentioned Pereiro?!?! He was not even better than Sepp Kuss. He would never even be close to win that Tour if there were competent guys in the DS car of Telekom and Phonak.
Mancebo, there are no reason to hold him higher than for example Enric Mas. Sastre won a Tour mainly because of team strength a year that Christian Vandevelde was 4th and Kim Kirchen was 7th, both way too close to pretend Sastre was at a much much higher level than for example what Lipowitz did in the Tour this year. Ullrich doesn’t belong with the rest of the guys you mentioned, he was legit strong also in a historical context.

The others are maybe only “more consistent” because you look back at their whole career while many of the guys today are still young. Lipowitz for example has never been worse than 7th in a Grand Tour. Almeida has 5 top 10 in GTs. Ayoso has also a bunch of top 10 already. In 5 years time these might have equal consistency as Valverde, Sastre, Kloden etc. Valverde won his only GT at 29, Sastre at 33. Valverde didn’t finish on the podium at the tour before he was 36. Kloden had 3 top 10 in 18 GTs and DNF 9 out of 18. His GT results from his whole career isn’t even really better than Remco at 25. I see no reason to hold these guys you mentioned (minus) Ullrich at a level higher than Roglic, Lipowitz, Remco, Simon Yates or even Carapaz.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Hahaha you actually mentioned Pereiro?!?! He was not even better than Sepp Kuss. He would never even be close to win that Tour if there were competent guys in the DS car of Telekom and Phonak.
Mancebo, there are no reason to hold him higher than for example Enric Mas. Sastre won a Tour mainly because of team strength a year that Christian Vandevelde was 4th and Kim Kirchen was 7th, both way too close to pretend Sastre was at a much much higher level than for example what Lipowitz did in the Tour this year. Ullrich doesn’t belong with the rest of the guys you mentioned, he was legit strong also in a historical context.

The others are maybe only “more consistent” because you look back at their whole career while many of the guys today are still young. Lipowitz for example has never been worse than 7th in a Grand Tour. Almeida has 5 top 10 in GTs. Ayoso has also a bunch of top 10 already. In 5 years time these might have equal consistency as Valverde, Sastre, Kloden etc. Valverde won his only GT at 29, Sastre at 33. Valverde didn’t finish on the podium at the tour before he was 36. Kloden had 3 top 10 in 18 GTs and DNF 9 out of 18. His GT results from his whole career isn’t even really better than Remco at 25. I see no reason to hold these guys you mentioned (minus) Ullrich at a level higher than Roglic, Lipowitz, Remco, Simon Yates or even Carapaz.

Yeah they might have consistency in the next 5 years. Pogacar hasn’t won those tours yet though has he.
I’m talking about the last 5 years, which have been poor.
And I’ll take sastre, Valverde, basso, Kloden, Vino
Over
Lipowitz, Porte, Roglic, Yates , Onley

Roglic DNF’s most of the time too, and i guess he’s the standout of the current contenders outside of Pog and vin.

Also, Pereiro takes some flak from cycling fans, but he is a tour winner, and finished in the top ten four times.
Sepp kuss has never finished in the top ten, and is unlikely to now, and his only grand tour victory, in the inferior vuelta was gifted to him even more so than Pereiros tour!
Pereiro is far ahead of a guy like him.

 

[Charlyghoul]

Sastre - tour winner
Pereiro- tour winner
Valverde- gt winner
Vino- gt winner
Basso - gt winner

Lipowitz- none
Yates -none
Other Yates - gt winner
Roglic- gt winner
Onley - none
Porte- none

 

[Charlyghoul]

Maybe, we could say that dreadful tour where old man Evans won, and Voeckler came 4th , was worse, but the strength in depth is not good in the current moment.
I hope and somewhat expect that Onley, Lipo can improve, the top ten has been so bad for five years that the time is right for a change.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Hahaha you actually mentioned Pereiro?!?! He was not even better than Sepp Kuss. He would never even be close to win that Tour if there were competent guys in the DS car of Telekom and Phonak.
Mancebo, there are no reason to hold him higher than for example Enric Mas. Sastre won a Tour mainly because of team strength a year that Christian Vandevelde was 4th and Kim Kirchen was 7th, both way too close to pretend Sastre was at a much much higher level than for example what Lipowitz did in the Tour this year. Ullrich doesn’t belong with the rest of the guys you mentioned, he was legit strong also in a historical context.

The others are maybe only “more consistent” because you look back at their whole career while many of the guys today are still young. Lipowitz for example has never been worse than 7th in a Grand Tour. Almeida has 5 top 10 in GTs. Ayoso has also a bunch of top 10 already. In 5 years time these might have equal consistency as Valverde, Sastre, Kloden etc. Valverde won his only GT at 29, Sastre at 33. Valverde didn’t finish on the podium at the tour before he was 36. Kloden had 3 top 10 in 18 GTs and DNF 9 out of 18. His GT results from his whole career isn’t even really better than Remco at 25. I see no reason to hold these guys you mentioned (minus) Ullrich at a level higher than Roglic, Lipowitz, Remco, Simon Yates or even Carapaz.

Amen!

 

[Peyroteo94]

Sastre - tour winner
Pereiro- tour winner
Valverde- gt winner
Vino- gt winner
Basso - gt winner

Lipowitz- none
Yates -none
Other Yates - gt winner
Roglic- gt winner
Onley - none
Porte- none

I don't understand this point.

 

[Charlyghoul]

I don't understand this point.

The point is that the previous era was more competitive, as it was in Hinaults day, as it was in Merckx day, as it was in Indurains day.
Once again, the quality of the top two guys now masks the inferior calibre of the rest of the field. And it is inferior, by any reasonable metric.

 

[scribers]

You're throwing haymakers Charly. It's best to accept Pogacar is the finest talent in a lifetime. Not a generation, but a lifetime. note: Merckx life is still in play with this. Pogi has every ability to meet or exceed most of Merckx accomplishments short of maybe the total number of wins, which is daunting. The only thing left is time to see if any situations short of actual competition can stop him.

 

[Charlyghoul]

You're throwing haymakers Charly. It's best to accept Pogacar is the finest talent in a lifetime. Not a generation, but a lifetime. note: Merckx life is still in play with this. Pogi has every ability to meet or exceed most of Merckx accomplishments short of maybe the total number of wins, which is daunting. The only thing left is time to see if any situations short of actual competition can stop him.

That remains to be seen.
At the moment he has five grand tours, one more than Nibali, less than Contador, less than Froome.
No roubaix, no San remo.
I just think we need to appreciate the old riders too.

I think most of us if we are honest put tours and grand tours as a priority ? Am I wrong ?
Tadej has the same as Bartali who couldn’t race for the better part of his prime, less than Coppi, who couldn’t either.

He now talks about being burnt out and talks of retirement.
I think it’s reasonable to question his goat credentials, in a few more years then things can be different.

 

[pmcg76]

The point is that the previous era was more competitive, as it was in Hinaults day, as it was in Merckx day, as it was in Indurains day.
Once again, the quality of the top two guys now masks the inferior calibre of the rest of the field. And it is inferior, by any reasonable metric.

How was it more competitive in the eras of Hinault or Indurain? neither of those guys even had a Vingegaard type rival, who managed to beat them a few times. They won their Tours just as easily as Pogacar.

 

[scribers]

He's racing history. It's his only competition. As @James M would say, it's basic stuff. Easy for all to see. You don't have to like it to see it.

You can hope he crashes or slumps into a debilitating depression. That's kind of a bad situation to be in if you aren't a fan of the rider but spend time looking at the sport.

 

[MariaB]

Merckx had easy competition against farmers from 5 countries.

Sorry, but it's not even a debate. Pogacar is facing a much more difficult era.

 

[Charlyghoul]

How was it more competitive in the eras of Hinault or Indurain? neither of those guys even had a Vingegaard type rival, who managed to beat them a few times. They won their Tours just as easily as Pogacar.

Because Hinault had Lemond, Fignon, Zoetemelk

Indurain had Zulle, Rominger, Pantani

It depends if you value one great rival or several (maybe) slightly lesser rivals

 

[Charlyghoul]

Merckx had easy competition against farmers from 5 countries.

Sorry, but it's not even a debate. Pogacar is facing a much more difficult era.

Farmers are stronger than fishermen

 

[Charlyghoul]

The current era has no one outside the top two who can animate a race or put in some kind of meaningful attack on the favourites.
There is only two guys who can do any thing.
Are they really that good , or are the rest really that bad? It’s a bit of both for me, but the current era, even if you don’t say it’s weaker, is certainly not stronger.

 

[Hugo Koblet]

Because Hinault had Lemond, Fignon, Zoetemelk

Indurain had Zulle, Rominger, Pantani

It depends if you value one great rival or several (maybe) slightly lesser rivals

Pogacar has Vingegaard and Roglic in GT's and Evenepoel, VDP and Van Aert in the classics.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Farmers are stronger than fishermen

Only vegans think that