Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[jotafap]

I completely disagree with the idea that Nibali was not smart, but regarding his comments about MSR, I can’t really make sense of them.

How on earth is Pogacar supposed to win MSR without relying on power? It’s the only way for him: either he drops everyone on the climbs, or he doesn’t win at all. What Nibali did is unrepeatable for the most closely marked rider on the planet.

If we were talking about Sagan, that could make more sense, because despite being just as closely marked at the time, he could win in many different ways. That gave him much more room to make better decisions and change the outcome.

 

[Berniece]

I completely disagree with the idea that Nibali was not smart, but regarding his comments about MSR, I can’t really make sense of them.

How on earth is Pogacar supposed to win MSR without relying on power? It’s the only way for him: either he drops everyone on the climbs, or he doesn’t win at all. What Nibali did is unrepeatable for the most closely marked rider on the planet.

If we were talking about Sagan, that could make more sense, because despite being just as closely marked at the time, he could win in many different ways. That gave him much more room to make better decisions and change the outcome.

Maybe, but this situation hasn’t occurred yet for him. If there’s a situation where it’s not just him and MVDP, but 2-3 riders more, you could actually take a different approach.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Crazy thing to say knowing how much Nibali has won based on his abilities.

Nibali is clueless regarding MVP though. The Dutch won WC, all Roubaix and Flandres and at least one of MSR by brute force. Thats the way it is today

 

[Berniece]

Nibali is clueless regarding MVP though. The Dutch won WC, all Roubaix and Flandres and at least one of MSR by brute force. Thats the way it is today

He won last year's MSR by intelligence a bit, same for his first Flanders against Pogacar. Intelligence is a big word, he's just a killer during important moments and stays calm. Mostly when he needs to sprint for victory. His win against WVA in Flanders was also because he stayed calm. WC CX Hoogerheide couple of years ago was the same.

 

[BubbaChuck]

lmao,we will hear all year,how everbody is working for pogacar and now this.wild take is talking about descent.lets be serius.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

He won last year's MSR by intelligence a bit, same for his first Flanders against Pogacar. Intelligence is a big word, he's just a killer during important moments and stays calm. Mostly when he needs to sprint for victory. His win against WVA in Flanders was also because he stayed calm. WC CX Hoogerheide couple of years ago was the same.

I wouldn't classify "having a better sprint" as intelligence

 

[Berniece]

I wouldn't classify "having a better sprint" as intelligence

That's not just having a better sprint. He always rides the sprint he wants.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

That's not just having a better sprint. He always rides the sprint he wants.

How else is someone going to force a sprint they have more chance in, without killing their own sprint before it even starts? Asgreen in Flandres seems to be an exception

 

[Berniece]

How else is someone going to force a sprint they have more chance in, without killing their own sprint before it even starts? Asgreen in Flandres seems to be an exception

I mean he isn’t always necessarily the strongest of fastest sprinter when he wins a sprint. He knows how to play it tactically so he has the best odds of winning the sprint.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

He won last year's MSR by intelligence a bit, same for his first Flanders against Pogacar. Intelligence is a big word, he's just a killer during important moments and stays calm. Mostly when he needs to sprint for victory. His win against WVA in Flanders was also because he stayed calm. WC CX Hoogerheide couple of years ago was the same.

One can also say Pogacar won Lombardy 2023 or some Tour stages (like Cambasque in 2023) by tactics. It does not change the general pattern of today's cycling: the strongest guys win most races by brute force and MSR is a rare exception where i.e. playing with two cards could benefit UAE.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

I mean he isn’t always necessarily the strongest of fastest sprinter when he wins a sprint. He knows how to play it tactically so he has the best odds of winning the sprint.

For his big wins (monuments, WC) the only time he won against a maybe better sprinter was against Wout in Flanders and that's debatable. Others were solos or he won against weaker sprinters, as expected. In fact, he even lost to Asgreen and Vermeersch also beat him in 2021 P-R that Colbrelli won

I see a negative score here: won against stronger sprinters 1:2 lost against weaker sprinters

 

[vappaxbipmv]

One can also say Pogacar won Lombardy 2023 or some Tour stages (like Cambasque in 2023) by tactics. It does not change the general pattern of today's cycling: the strongest guys win most races by brute force and MSR is a rare exception where i.e. playing with two cards could benefit UAE.

UAE doesn't want to win MSR with whoever. They want to win it specifically with Pogacar, which is a lot more difficult

 

[Krzysztof_O]

UAE doesn't want to win MSR with whoever. They want to win it specifically with Pogacar, which is a lot more difficult

It's indeed but playing with two cards could also benefit Pogacar. Agree with your general point that MVP won sprints he was expected to: he held on to his dear life during the finale of 2022 Flandres and everybody knew he had bigger chances than Pogacar in sprint (that's why the Slovenian was attacking and MVP tried to hold on).

 

[vappaxbipmv]

It's indeed but playing with two cards could also benefit Pogacar. Agree with your general point that MVP won sprints he was expected to: he held on to his dear life during the finale of 2022 Flandres and everybody knew he had bigger chances than Pogacar in sprint (that's why the Slovenian was attacking and MVP tried to hold on).

I mean it's logical, why would a better sprinter try to force a solo if he can just win in the sprint if it comes down to that

 

[Berniece]

For his big wins (monuments, WC) the only time he won against a maybe better sprinter was against Wout in Flanders and that's debatable. Others were solos or he won against weaker sprinters, as expected. In fact, he even lost to Asgreen and Vermeersch also beat him in 2021 P-R that Colbrelli won

I see a negative score here: won against stronger sprinters 1:2 lost against weaker sprinters

After a long or hard race he isn’t necessarily the better sprinter anymore. See Evenepoel and Pogacar both having beaten WVA.

Also not sure what the debate is here… If you don’t feel MVDP clearly used his brains during the sprint of MSR’25 and De Ronde ‘22 I don’t know what to say.

 

[AmRacer]

After a long or hard race he isn’t necessarily the better sprinter anymore. See Evenepoel and Pogacar both having beaten WVA.

Also not sure what the debate is here… If you don’t feel MVDP clearly used his brains during the sprint of MSR’25 and De Ronde ‘22 I don’t know what to say.

25', Pogi drifted back behind Ganna so Mathieu had an easy win. You could argue Mathieu did a cunning move.
'22, Mathieu played games with Pogi. Could've won in 10 different ways.

 

[Monsi]

25', Pogi drifted back behind Ganna so Mathieu had an easy win. You could argue Mathieu did a cunning move.
'22, Mathieu played games with Pogi. Could've won in 10 different ways.

'25 MSR: Pogi drifted back to try and use the slipstream of both Ganna and MVDP. MVDP saw this and that's why he started his sprint early to catch them by surprise.

'22 RVV: In the final kilometer, Pogi already refused to go to the front because he wanted to let MVDP lead it out. MVDP probably expected that so he responded by slowing the lead out in an attempt to use his biggest asset in the sprint: his superior acceleration and explosiveness. His lead out was that slow that it just so happened that Van Baarle and Madouas caught up them just as he started the sprint.

 

[vappaxbipmv]

After a long or hard race he isn’t necessarily the better sprinter anymore. See Evenepoel and Pogacar both having beaten WVA.

Also not sure what the debate is here… If you don’t feel MVDP clearly used his brains during the sprint of MSR’25 and De Ronde ‘22 I don’t know what to say.

How much brain power is needed in these examples? He was the favourite, the won those sprints. MSR, he could've won from any of the 3 positions, he was clearly the strongest in that sprint. RVV, same, clearly the fastest

 

[AmRacer]

'25 MSR: Pogi drifted back to try and use the slipstream of both Ganna and MVDP. MVDP saw this and that's why he started his sprint early to catch them by surprise.

'22 RVV: In the final kilometer, Pogi already refused to go to the front because he wanted to let MVDP lead it out. MVDP probably expected that so he responded by slowing the lead out in an attempt to use his biggest asset in the sprint: his superior acceleration and explosiveness. His lead out was that slow that it just so happened that Van Baarle and Madouas caught up them just as he started the sprint.

Ganna also wanted to use slipstream so he stopped pedalling, hence a gap between Ganna Pogi and Mathieu was created. Mathieu used that to his advantage. Pogi should've stayed at Mathieu's wheel.
22' Mathieu would've won the sprint anyway no matter what. But Pogi could be second in a two man sprint, instead of fourth.

 

[saunaking]

That's not just having a better sprint. He always rides the sprint he wants.

ya, against Wout who unfortunately always manages to stuff it up against MVDP. He's also lost to Asgreen and Pedersen in some big moments

 

[saunaking]

I'm not going to say that RDV or Merckx is not one of the best. But just because you win a lot doesn't mean you're actually exceptionally good

For example, imagine this hypothetical scenario: peloton of 200 guys, 10 of which are pros, 50 are semi pros and the rest are amateurs.

It's almost as if you're describing today's peleton if you just go by the results.

 

[AmRacer]

It's almost as if you're describing today's peleton if you just go by the results.

The thing is that today, there are three more peleton waiting to race. Back in the days, it was just the 200 riders.

 

[YavorD]

Ganna also wanted to use slipstream so he stopped pedalling, hence a gap between Ganna Pogi and Mathieu was created. Mathieu used that to his advantage. Pogi should've stayed at Mathieu's wheel.
22' Mathieu would've won the sprint anyway no matter what. But Pogi could be second in a two man sprint, instead of fourth.

Yes, he could. But being 4th in a 2 man sprint is much more legendary. Merckx couldn't do that.

Pozzovivo right now: "Hold my beer*.

 

[Tim Cahill]

I would hope for him that he's learnt his lesson this time, the Cipressa attack was a good idea and he should/will try it again, riding with Van Der Poel after he couldn't drop him on the Poggio was stupid, stop and let Ganna do his big move from behind and let the better sprinter chase. It felt like they hadn't thought about what to do in the scenario beforehand.

The big leadout train always looks great on Instagram but you need the guys to be there at the right moment, they had too much to do at the foot of the climb last time and it blunted the attack, I'd take Ivo Oliveira and Bjerg who are less flashy but always there, maybe allocate a rider to bring Narvaez (/Del Toro) up so Pogacar himself doesn't have to this time.

Obviously on a personal level I'm hoping it goes tits up, for both of them this time though, come on someone else!