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Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

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Which part? The one were healthy in form Pogačar beats Vingegard (totally true) or the one where Roglič played a vital role in burning out Pogs matches so Vinge was able to capitalize (also true)?

That Vingegaard had no chance of beating Pogacar. Pogacar is an infinitely cooler and more versatile rider than Vingegaard but he is definitely not that much better of a GT rider than him that it is inconceivable that he can lose without luck.
 
1 on 1 healthy in form no chance. That's what i said. Now you throw together bad luck, bad preparation, bad team...and it can turn around.

And the "no chance" part is what I find delusional.

I honestly don't know how you can have watched last year's Tour and this is your conclusion. Sure, they played it smart on the Granon stage but after that, Vingegaard was completely unflappable and not even close to ceding a (non-bonus) second the rest of the race.
 
Healthy and in 100% form Pog wins Vinge any time in a 3 week long GT (and 1 week long, and one day long and,...). Vinge had incredible luck last year. Pog was gaining seconds on Vinge day after day. Then Rog crashed and JV used him for bait so Pogačar burned out trying to fight Rog and Vinge at the same time. This won't happen again. There is no Rog. Just one on one.
Do you know how Jumbo knew that Pogacar would be vulnerable on altitude? Because Vingegaard had already dropped him on Ventoux the year before. I know it's difficult to accept that Pogacar has his flaws, but he does.
 
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1 on 1 healthy in form no chance. That's what i said. Now you throw together bad luck, bad preparation, bad team...and it can turn around.

Pog is clearly better than Vingegaard in any kind of race except a GT, where the latter is a monster (looking at the Skeletor's physique he's a perfect climber). I agree that on Granon Pogacar cracked and paid for his Galibier efforts (racing against JV) but this wasn't the case on Hautacam stage (when he crushed the rest of GC guys but still lost to a super strong Vinge by a minute). In fact, at last year's race Pog wasn't able to distance Vinge on any climb, shorter or longer (despite throwing a kitchen sink at him at times i.e. on Spendelles or Mende climbs). If Pog is at his absolute best (judging by his best performances) I think they should be close to each other during mountains stages but dropping Vinge seems almost impossible (unless it's very cold when Pog rules) and Pog's goal should be to stay with Vinge on most gruelling stages and get some small gains on other stages (or prey for cold, rainy weather when he utilizes glycogene more efficiently than the rest).
 
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And the "no chance" part is what I find delusional.

I honestly don't know how you can have watched last year's Tour and this is your conclusion. Sure, they played it smart on the Granon stage but after that, Vingegaard was completely unflappable and not even close to ceding a (non-bonus) second the rest of the race.
I guess his conclusion is that Pogačar wasn't at 100% last year, because he wasn't able to put in a Le Grand-Bornand like performance during the race, and because he beat Vingegaard by 5 minutes the year before. But we also know that Vingegaard lost most of the 2021 time differerence on a day where he had to wait for Roglic, on a day where he crashed and on the day after said crash, and that Pogacar wasn't able to crack him on any of the other stages, despite multiple efforts to do so (although he might have held back a little, because he already had a healthy lead).

Pogačar might be the best rider of the two when he's at 100%, but I agree that there's no way you can be fully certain about it.

Do you know how Jumbo knew that Pogacar would be vulnerable on altitude? Because Vingegaard had already dropped him on Ventoux the year before. I know it's difficult to accept that Pogacar has his flaws, but he does.
I wouldn't exactly call it a flaw cause he's still quite good, but yeah from what we've seen on Ventoux, Granon and Col de la Loze, it looks like altitude, and sometimes also heat, will improve the chances of him being beaten.
 
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Fact is the two are extremely close in GT racing when both in peak form. I think ultimately when going for their top 3 week performance over a GT route a lot of it depends on circumstances. For instance: Had Pog had his team last year, had the weather been cooler (with more rain), had he been properly fed in Granon, had there been no Roglič to mess with him, had the route suited him more (or Vinge less) and had he not thought he was invincible, we might have had a totally different race. But still even in this case, saying he would be head and shoulders above Vinge in any (or all) of these cases in currently unfounded.

I still think Pog is better overall in GT - but I'm open to changing my mind if Jonas wins over him convincingly without a clearly favourable circumnstance. The latter will be difficult because there will always be the "wrist excuse" for Pog.

But the real question is: what happens if Pog focuses entirely on Tour de France. I still hope that will never happen but if he loses this year again, he may have to reconsider his priorities. That's why I think it's in our best interest Tadej wins or at least comes very close. Else we are back to the days of extreme specialization where other races will get less international attention...
 
1 on 1 healthy in form no chance. That's what i said. Now you throw together bad luck, bad preparation, bad team...and it can turn around.
Like in hautacam and in the last TT, or even with mcnulty carrying pogacar until the last meters of peyragudes. Pogacar is and will continue to be the most complete rider in the world, but that's doesn't mean he will not beaten again in the Tour.
 
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I gave you the good news pogacar fans. Now it's time to give you the bad news....even a healthy pogacar at 100% will not be enough to beat vingegaard.
I love the trash talk from a fan of a guy who has won 1 big race in his career. The sad part is, I think you're right, I think Vingegaard will probably win the Tour and I don't think it'll be good for the sport. I suspect the only person who might be able to stop Ving Tour dominance is Remco but we'll have to wait for that. Then again, I hope I am wrong and Pog brings the excitement to the Tour.
 
Like in hautacam and in the last TT, or even with mcnulty carrying pogacar until the last meters of peyragudes. Pogacar is and will continue to be the most complete rider in the world, but that's doesn't mean he will not beaten again in the Tour.
As it doesn't mean he will get beaten by Vinge. Which is what you claimed yesterday. As these 2 riders stand at the moment it is impossible to reasonably argue with any sort of confidence one of the two will come on top. It's just your belief/preference/gut feel. And then it's how you express it: in a soft manner as you did yesterday or a little bit less articulated as @Gargamel35 did today. But the content is very similar...
 
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As a fan who was more often than not on the receiving end of Pog’s spanking I’m warning you - this guy does things you would never imagine possible… I wouldn’t bet a cent against him.

The entire premise of Vinge’s perceived dominance rests on the fact he was less bad in P-N this year than he was in Tirreno last year. As for TDF last year, Pog had a team of three in the end. I doubt Vinge is gonna get as lucky twice in a row.
I am a Pog fan, I'll admit that he's my favorite rider currently but I don't buy the lack of teammates causing defeat argument. Maybe it was the heat, maybe he wasn't 100%, maybe he went too far in the red too early chasing Roglic, who knows. But his team put him in position the the Pyrenees to win the race, Ving was simply too dominant in the high mountains. I think Ving is simply better in a 21 stage bike race over the highest mountains. I hope I am wrong because the 'I only win races in June/July' guys aren't good for the sport, but I guess we won't find out until we have a 100% Pog against a 100% Ving.
 
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As it doesn't mean he will get beaten by Vinge. Which is what you claimed yesterday. As these 2 riders stand at the moment it is impossible to reasonably argue with any sort of confidence one of the two will come on top. It's just your belief/preference/gut feel. And then it's how you express it: in a soft manner as you did yesterday or a little bit less articulated as @Gargamel35 did today. But the content is very similar...
It's not about that. I wasn't a fan of Vingegaard before the tour 2022, but i said even before the granon that he would win the tour 2022, and look what happened. It's not about being a fan or not.
 
I actually think that he has a better chance now than before the crash. Last year he was clearly inferior to JV and I don't buy that Rog made that much difference, JV had to follow those attacks as well.
But I think that was because of how Pog rides, some rest and specific training after his insane spring is probably for the best.
I think this is a super interesting theory. He did remarkably well in a condensed season in 2020. We'll see if you're right!
 
It's not about that. I wasn't a fan of Vingegaard before the tour 2022, but i said even before the granon that he would win the tour 2022, and look what happened. It's not about being a fan or not.
Sure - you knowing Vinge would win has had nothing to do with you being a fan but just successfully observing the facts that were out there for the taking... Especially Tirreno Adriatico was very good indicator he would smash Pog in TDF :)
 
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I already said some time ago in this forum that after plateau de solaison, i predicted that vingegaard was going to win the tour.
I predict every race that Roglič is going to win. Great success rate. Way more than 50%... But even if I try to justify it with reason and argument, if I’m totally honest it probably has something to do with the fact that I’m a fan…
 
you all debating if pogacar isnt miles ahead of vingegaard if hes in peak condition in a 3 week GT? everyone actually typing and thinking that vingegaard is even close to pogacar in a GT if pogacar is peak condition,,, you all are something else got nothing else to say than that holymoly actually mindboggling haha. funny world we live in.
I wish I had access to live cycling and cycling forum at your age so I could have known more about cycling. But it was different time and place. Consider yourself and your generation lucky, Little One.
 
you all debating if pogacar isnt miles ahead of vingegaard if hes in peak condition in a 3 week GT? everyone actually typing and thinking that vingegaard is even close to pogacar in a GT if pogacar is peak condition,,, you all are something else got nothing else to say than that holymoly actually mindboggling haha. funny world we live in.

Oh, God.