Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Netserk]

Yep. There’s also plenty good to take away from his ride this year. From Cauterets to Joux-Plane, he seemed to be the strongest rider in the race. And he can be quite sure that he’ll be better throughout the race with a better prep. He rolled low this year, but it could just as well have happened to Vingegaard.

Now he’ll have to recover and the team will have to figure out what exactly happened here and what they can do about it. Just like at Ronde, he will come back the following year and keep swinging his hammer until something gives.

 

[Extinction]

I agree that Pog's threshold was very high during this Tour, maybe highest ever. His performances on Tourmalet, Puy de Dome and Joux Plane stages confirm it. He clearly lacked something for the 3rd week though (it looked like he peaked for a 2-week race) and it likely was associated with preparations. As for the TT, sure, Vinge performed superbly well. But since yesterday I'm actually starting to think that maybe top form Pog wouldn't be that far off (6.8 w/kg for 20 min is outrageous but Pog did 6.5 w/kg for 29 min at the end of difficult stage at a higher altitude so maybe he would be able to produce i.e. 6.7 w/kg for last 20 mins of a TT losing i.e. 30-40 seconds instead of 100).

I suppose it's possible, but on the other hand Vingo has simply upped the bar with that performance. Pog will be hard pressed to reach it, let alone raise it higher. And who's to say Vingeggard won't yet do better? Plus the Dane has learned even more on how to beat Tadej. Now he knows, for example, that if he doesn't drop him (Tourmalet), don't pace him until he attacks you. He also knows not to try to stay with Pog's fierce accelerations within 1-2 km to go, but to burn more slowly and lose very little ground in the end. Since he knows those jabs will cost Pog much more, when Jonas decides to hit hard. As in the end the Cauterets to Joux-Plane period, when Tadej seemed to be the strongest rider in the race, because of his attacks, only made Pog the unwitting catalyst of his own demise when Vingeggard said "now it's my turn to hit you!"

 

[Maxss]

It's going to be fascinating to watch in the years to come, starting with next year, how he will perform and more specifically, what the preparation will look like. It's quite obvious by now that Jonas is superior in the endurance department, and Jumbo is just going to continue, and even increase the killer tempo setting all throughout the mountains, as they are signing riders around the abilities of their leader. What could Pog and the UAE team do in order to cope with that? Probably focus even more on the base part, even if it means less power?

 

[Peter von]

It's going to be fascinating to watch in the years to come, starting with next year, how he will perform and more specifically, what the preparation will look like. It's quite obvious by now that Jonas is superior in the endurance department, and Jumbo is just going to continue, and even increase the killer tempo setting all throughout the mountains, as they are signing riders around the abilities of their leader. What could Pog and the UAE team do in order to cope with that? Probably focus even more on the base part, even if it means less power?

yeah it'll be very interesting to see. One could argue that for stage racing he has an excess of power.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Director of Performance at UAE :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682007393691918338

View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1682007393691918338

 

[tretiak]

Director of Performance at UAE :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682007393691918338

View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1682007393691918338

What an afterthought. Is it AI generated.

Training on trainees is perfect for grinding long hard sessions. Think he's mentally broken after 2022. He thought if I don't go on all the attacks from Jumbo, I'll be fine. But he made the same mistake again, but not Jumbo who tricked him, but himself. He burned his matches far too soon.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

Director of Performance at UAE :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682007393691918338

View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1682007393691918338

If that's the case, why not downplay his chances in the beginning to take the pressure off?

Saying it now after he was within 10s thru 15 stages only to get beat down feels like excuses.

 

[tretiak]

His ITT reconnaissance was sloppy. Check the comparison video between him and Jonas. What did he think he had such good margins that he could slouch on descents and curves?

Why is he changing bikes? There was a lot that didn't add up. He only has himself to blame.

 

[Bolder]

If that's the case, why not downplay his chances in the beginning to take the pressure off?

Saying it now after he was within 10s thru 15 stages only to get beat down feels like excuses.

I agree. He doesn't need to apologize or make excuses for his Tour. He fought hard but it wasn't to be. Vingegaard is just stronger than him, even in peak condition.

 

[FrontHeadlock]

I agree. He doesn't need to apologize or make excuses for his Tour. He fought hard but it wasn't to be. Vingegaard is just stronger than him, even in peak condition.

Honestly, all the more reason to set expectations lower before the Tour.

 

[Lorzenz08]

What an afterthought. Is it AI generated.

Training on trainees is perfect for grinding long hard sessions. Think he's mentally broken after 2022. He thought if I don't go on all the attacks from Jumbo, I'll be fine. But he made the same mistake again, but not Jumbo who tricked him, but himself. He burned his matches far too soon.

I agree that in retrospective, after Puy de Dome, he should maybe have taken the entire 2nd week "easy", and not try anything but stay in Vinge wheel.

He would have came in the ITT with 17 seconds instead of 10 secs, but with fresher legs. I don't think it would have been enough to beat Vinge, but he would maybe have been within a minute + not crack on Loze.

Then on stage 20, if he's no more than 60 secs behind Vinge, who knows what can happen...

 

[QueenStagiaire]

If that's the case, why not downplay his chances in the beginning to take the pressure off?

What do you mean? He said Adam Yates was Co-leader, he said he was not physically 100%, but ‚mentally stronger than ever‘, he said his wrist wasn‘t perfectly fine, it‘s just that nobody took those claims seriously after the Pyrenees.

 

[Peter von]

Director of Performance at UAE :

https://twitter.com/x/status/1682007393691918338

View: https://twitter.com/doctorinigo/status/1682007393691918338

Turns out getting hurt…. Hurts.

Looking forward to see him next season not just in the Tour.

 

[Cookster15]

I agree. He doesn't need to apologize or make excuses for his Tour. He fought hard but it wasn't to be. Vingegaard is just stronger than him, even in peak condition.

I disagree with the bold - "even in peak condition", when was that? We don't know this. As Netserk wrote yesterday, "from Cauterets to Joux-Plane, he seemed to be the strongest rider in the race" Yep - not bad for a rider who couldn't train properly after a late April broken wrist.

How do you think Vingegaard would have fared in 2022 if the team roles were reversed or this year with the injury setback? From what I have noticed Vingegaard is the more fragile, certainly mentally if not physically. Physically Vingo is protected and kept fresher by his stronger team. UAE were better this year, but Pog's condition wasn't.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Dr Inigo Milan says Pogacar's pre-Tour training block way too short and 2nd place is very good under those circumstances:

Pogacar's Tour de France performance 'huge' in light of spring injury, says coach

Iñigo San Millán says second on GC is a success after Liège injury skewed Tour de France training

www.cyclingnews.com

He also states that his numbers this spring (after Flandres) were best ever. It's a shame the Tour ended like that but his preparation surely was a factor. He had very good numbers at the Tour indeed but unable to keep his level in the 3rd week.

 

[Salvarani]

I disagree with the bold - "even in peak condition", when was that? We don't know this. As Netserk wrote yesterday, "from Cauterets to Joux-Plane, he seemed to be the strongest rider in the race" Yep - not bad for a rider who couldn't train properly after a late April broken wrist.

How do you think Vingegaard would have fared in 2022 if the team roles were reversed or this year with the injury setback? From what I have noticed Vingegaard is the more fragile, certainly mentally if not physically. Physically Vingo is protected and kept fresher by his stronger team. UAE were better this year, but Pog's condition wasn't.

I dont think he can drop the watts Vinge did in the TT, who could have dropped even more. At least, thats how it looked to me.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I dont think he can drop the watts Vinge did in the TT, who could have dropped even more. At least, thats how it looked to me.

If Vinge did he’d probably have been flying away once reaching the top of the first hill.

 

[Cookster15]

I dont think he can drop the watts Vinge did in the TT, who could have dropped even more. At least, thats how it looked to me.

Maybe you are right. But on stage 20 of 2020 TdF Pogacar was rivaling the specialists before the climb. Do you think he couldn't rival Vingegaard at that level? If he loses 30 seconds rather than 90, and recovers better for thefollowing day, what if?

Tour de France 2020 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2020 Stage 20 (ITT) from Lure to La Planche des Belles Filles was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Tom Dumoulin and Richie Porte. Tadej PogaÄar was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

Here is an article which analyses Pog's performance that day when he was still only 21 years old:

The Race of a Lifetime : Tadej POGAÄAR's Stage 20 Time Trial Analysis

tadej pogacar, time trial

www.georgeron.com

The results indicate a positive split with an average power of 451 Watts for the 1st segment until T1 and 402 Watts for the 2nd segment T1-T2

I am pretty sure Pog would be capable of higher watts now, all else being equal. "All else being equal" means no crash interrupting his prep. But as mentioned by others, he rode a very good TT but his lack of prep really caught up with him on Loze.

 

[Salvarani]

Maybe you are right. But on stage 20 of 2020 TdF Pogacar was rivaling the specialists before the climb. Do you think he couldn't rival Vingegaard at that level? If he loses 30 seconds rather than 90, and recovers better for thefollowing day, what if?

Tour de France 2020 Stage 20 (ITT) results

Tour de France 2020 Stage 20 (ITT) from Lure to La Planche des Belles Filles was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Tom Dumoulin and Richie Porte. Tadej PogaÄar was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

Here is an article which analyses Pog's performance that day when he was still only 21 years old:

The Race of a Lifetime : Tadej POGAÄAR's Stage 20 Time Trial Analysis

tadej pogacar, time trial

www.georgeron.com

I am pretty sure Pog would be capable of higher watts now, all else being equal. "All else being equal" means no crash interrupting his prep. But as mentioned by others, he rode a very good TT but his lack of prep really caught up with him on Loze.

But... he was better than the specialists before the climb this year as well.

Honestly, I dont think his interrupting means he would necessarily be able to push more watts than he did here. I dont think that is how it works. I could be wrong. Just a guess. Unless he is able to improve even more. Who really knows.

Maybe it prevents a collapse the following day, but that is unknown and just a speculation as well.

 

[Cookster15]

But... he was better than the specialists before the climb this year as well.

Honestly, I dont think his interrupting means he would necessarily be able to push more watts than he did here. I dont think that is how it works. I could be wrong. Just a guess.

Maybe it prevents a collapse the following day, but that is unknown and just a speculation as well.

I think the collapse on Loze is more relevant than any slight loss on stage 16. Also if you are good before the climb but not on the climb it suggests your level isn't high enough - that also points to loss of condition from his LBL crash. In 2020 he was quickest on the climb.

So I don't accept that peak Pog can't rival Vingegaard.

 

[Salvarani]

I think the collapse on Loze is more relevant than any slight loss on stage 16. Also if you are good before the climb but not on the climb it suggests your level isn't high enough - that also points to loss of condition from his LBL crash. In 2020 he was quickest on the climb.

So I don't accept that peak Pog can't rival Vingegaard.

Describing stage 16 as a slight loss... you are being very generous imo.

Once again... I dont think he is bad on the climb. Not compared to anyone else.

He was quicker now, than in 2020!

You are free to not accept it, but he was at peak form here. It is the best he has showed, so far. Just numbers/data-wise.

 

[topcat]

I accept that peak Pog cannot rival Vingo. But I’m in the flow of life, I’m no longer struggling against it.

 

[Nick2413]

Dr Inigo Milan says Pogacar's pre-Tour training block way too short and 2nd place is very good under those circumstances:

Pogacar's Tour de France performance 'huge' in light of spring injury, says coach

Iñigo San Millán says second on GC is a success after Liège injury skewed Tour de France training

www.cyclingnews.com

He also states that his numbers this spring (after Flandres) were best ever. It's a shame the Tour ended like that but his preparation surely was a factor. He had very good numbers at the Tour indeed but unable to keep his level in the 3rd week.

This is fine and all but frankly it’s disrespectful to Vingegaard to act like there was ever any chance of being in his league even under perfect preparation. Clinic or not, nobody was getting close this year.

 

[Panda Claws]

I find it odd how the narrative towards young prodigies has now shifted towards neglecting further possible growth they may have. Used to be that cyclists kept improving until at least age 28. Aside from sprinters perhaps.

Perhaps today, due to improvements in the finding and fostering of talent the peak is reached sooner but I find it a rather defeatist stance to just assume that Pogacar has improved all he can. Vingegaard is two years older and might in fact be the one closer to his peak.

If no improvement can be had then Evenepoel honestly shouldn't bother with the Tour since he hasn't shown this level in a GT. If improvement can be had then I wonder if Pogacar is really to old to still do so.

 

[bNator]

This is fine and all but frankly it’s disrespectful to Vingegaard to act like there was ever any chance of being in his league even under perfect preparation. Clinic or not, nobody was getting close this year.

Well I rember clear as day TJV hinting Jonas will be up to the task in 2022 after he just got his ass handed to him by Tadej in 2021. Was that disrespectful?