Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[shadowrider]

Remco has a history of looking strong in the first half of a GT and failing in the last week. His 2022 Vuelta performance is so far proving to be an outlier and it could very well be that Rogla's abscence has something to do with it as well.

If Remco was out with covid or crash on Vuelta 2023 on stage 12, you would probably be saying the same thing: that he would have (easily) won the event. He was in front of both Roglic and Vingegaard by a hefty margin after all...

And it's not just Remco that's "failing" in the final week. It happened to Roglic, Pogacar, Yates, Thomas, Bernal, almost everybody bar Vingegaard so far. Which finally brings me to the bottom line: Claiming someone would have easily won a GT based on the status at stage 12, 16, 18, 19 (or sometimes even 20) is ridiculous.

Roglic, this year perfectly prepared for the Giro 2023, wouldn't have won that GT without the Covid-case of Evenepoel. Not only because Evenepoel had to abandon after destroying Roglic during the first stage (of course no guarantee Evenepoel wouldn't have had a bad day), but because at the end of the Giro Roglic could barely beat the old and worn out Thomas.

 

[AmRacer]

Roglic, this year perfectly prepared for the Giro 2023, wouldn't have won that GT without the Covid-case of Evenepoel. Not only because Evenepoel had to abandon after destroying Roglic during the first stage (of course no guarantee Evenepoel wouldn't have had a bad day), but because at the end of the Giro Roglic could barely beat the old and worn out Thomas.

Remco hasn't yet finished ahead of Jonas, Pog, Rog and Thomas in a GT. Last year, Thomas was best of the rest.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Roglic, this year perfectly prepared for the Giro 2023, wouldn't have won that GT without the Covid-case of Evenepoel. Not only because Evenepoel had to abandon after destroying Roglic during the first stage (of course no guarantee Evenepoel wouldn't have had a bad day), but because at the end of the Giro Roglic could barely beat the old and worn out Thomas.

I don't think Roglič was perfectly prepared for the Giro, considering the injury he was bouncing back from. Also he crashed during the race, which might have affected his performance.
His preparation should and also appeared to have been better for the Vuelta.

 

[bNator]

Roglic, this year perfectly prepared for the Giro 2023, wouldn't have won that GT without the Covid-case of Evenepoel. Not only because Evenepoel had to abandon after destroying Roglic during the first stage (of course no guarantee Evenepoel wouldn't have had a bad day), but because at the end of the Giro Roglic could barely beat the old and worn out Thomas.

Is that the same old and worn out Thomas who podiumed the last 2 out of 3 GTs he entered?

 

[shadowrider]

I don't think Roglič was perfectly prepared for the Giro, considering the injury he was bouncing back from. Also he crashed during the race, which might have affected his performance.
His preparation should and also appeared to have been better for the Vuelta.

He ended third in the Vuelta. After he tried to attack his own teammates Kuss and Vingegaard. Without success. He was brought back by opponents from other teams. Since the Vuelta 2021 Roglic didn't win a GT. I don't think Roglic will win another GT. Not only beause of his age. But because Vingegaard, Pogacar and even Evenepoel are stronger.

 

[shadowrider]

Is that the same old and worn out Thomas who podiumed the last 2 out of 3 GTs he entered?

Yes, against minor opponents ending behind him (those ending before were way better, Roglic only slightly better in the Giro).

 

[Samu Cuenca]

He ended third in the Vuelta. After he tried to attack his own teammates Kuss and Vingegaard. Without success. He was brought back by opponents from other teams. Since the Vuelta 2021 Roglic didn't win a GT. I don't think Roglic will win another GT. Not only beause of his age. But because Vingegaard, Pogacar and even Evenepoel are stronger.

You might think he didn't deserve it, but there's no denying that he did win the Giro. And there's no way of really knowing how strong he was in the Vuelta, cause the race unfolded in a way that made it impossible for him to win no matter what.

 

[Berniece]

Remco hasn't yet finished ahead of Jonas, Pog, Rog and Thomas in a GT. Last year, Thomas was best of the rest.

Neither did Jonas, Pog, Rog or Thomas against Remco...

 

[bNator]

Neither did Jonas, Pog, Rog or Thomas against Remco...

Didn’t Jonas and Rog finish ahead of Remco in 2023 Vuelta? Or does that not count™?

 

[Berniece]

Didn’t Jonas and Rog finish ahead of Remco in 2023 Vuelta? Or does that not count™?

Completely forgot about that already. That counts indeed, my bad.

 

[shadowrider]

You might think he didn't deserve it, but there's no denying that he did win the Giro. And there's no way of really knowing how strong he was in the Vuelta, cause the race unfolded in a way that made it impossible for him to win no matter what.

O no, he wanted to win the Vuelta. He was frustrated Kuss was allowed to be the number one. And yes, he tried to attack the last days (have you watched the Vuelta ?). But he wasn't strong enough. He could only take 50 meters. So, he couldnt defeat 'teammates' Kuss and Vingegaard, but was even brought back by supposed weaker opponents.

 

[bNator]

Yes, against minor opponents ending behind him (those ending before were way better, Roglic only slightly better in the Giro).

The riders you are mocking have a combined tally of 5 GT victories and 11 GT podiums and are in my opinion both still able to have Remco run for his money despite being 15 years older. Think about that…

 

[shadowrider]

The riders you are mocking have a combined tally of 5 GT victories and 11 GT podiums and are in my opinion both still able to have Remco run for his money despite being 15 years older. Think about that…

But not today anymore. Froome, Bernal, Thomas... Ever, yes. You have to compare with opponents at their best (Vingegaard,Pogacar). Or who have only just passed their peak (Yates, Mas, Landa). Or who have not yet reached their peak (Evenepoel, Ayuso). Roglic himself is already past his peak, but still competitive. But even in his best year, Roglic was unable to beat a 21-year-old.

 

[bNator]

But not today anymore. Froome, Bernal, Thomas... Ever, yes. You have to compare with opponents at their best (Vingegaard,Pogacar). Or who have only just passed their peak (Yates, Mas, Landa). Or who have not yet reached their peak (Evenepoel, Ayuso). Roglic himself is already past his peak, but still competitive. But even in his best year, Roglic was unable to beat a 21-year-old.

Which best year? What are you talking about? You guys ignore your Giro after an autumn injury to the point it's as if it never happened. Doesn't "count"... Roglic in Giro 2023 was nowhere near his prime...

As for being unable to beat Remco - looks like you guys have some serious memory issues. He beat Remco in Vuelta, it was actually Roglic who put the first nail in Remco's coffin in stage 6. Apart from that, he also beat Remco in Catalunya. And he won the Giro. You know who wasn't able to beat the other guy in 2023? Remco. Not once.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

O no, he wanted to win the Vuelta. He was frustrated Kuss was allowed to be the number one. And yes, he tried to attack the last days (have you watched the Vuelta ?). But he wasn't strong enough. He could only take 50 meters. So, he couldnt defeat 'teammates' Kuss and Vingegaard, but was even brought back by supposed weaker opponents.

Sure he wanted to win the Vuelta. I'm not claiming he was the strongest in the race, only that he didn't get the chance to fully display his level. However what he did prove was that only Vingegaard might have been stronger than him.

He may never win a GT again, time will tell, but, at least in my opinion, his chances are better than I thought ahead of last season, where he almost won two.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Pogacar (who didn't even ride the 2023 Vuelta) thread, apparently.

 

[Lequack]

Pogacar (who didn't even ride the 2023 Vuelta) thread, apparently.

 

[shadowrider]

Which best year? What are you talking about? You guys ignore your Giro after an autumn injury to the point it's as if it never happened. Doesn't "count"... Roglic in Giro 2023 was nowhere near his prime...

As for being unable to beat Remco - looks like you guys have some serious memory issues. He beat Remco in Vuelta, it was actually Roglic who put the first nail in Remco's coffin in stage 6. Apart from that, he also beat Remco in Catalunya. And he won the Giro. You know who wasn't able to beat the other guy in 2023? Remco. Not once.

My memory is fine. But did Roglic won the Vuelta 2023 ? He tried to and attacked the last week (against teamorders). But didn't succeed. He was brought back by "weaker" opponents. Evenepoel would have beaten Roglic for sure in the Giro, without covid. Obvious after the first stage...... and after seeing struggle Roglic till the last day before beat the old Thomas with seconds. And I am still waiting for the answer why Roglic hasn't won the Tour yet.... and especially the Tour 2020 when he was at his toplevel.

 

[bNator]

My memory is fine. But did Roglic won the Vuelta 2023 ? He tried to and attacked the last week (against teamorders). But didn't succeed. He was brought back by "weaker" opponents. Evenepoel would have beaten Roglic for sure in the Giro, without covid. Obvious after the first stage...... and after seeing struggle Roglic till the last day before beat the old Thomas with seconds. And I am still waiting for the answer why Roglic hasn't won the Tour yet.... and especially the Tour 2020 when he was at his toplevel.

He didn't win the Tour in 2020 because he had a crash in 2018 where he injured his elbow.

 

[wansteadimp]

Remco hasn't yet finished ahead of Jonas, Pog, Rog and Thomas in a GT. Last year, Thomas was best of the rest.

Vuelta 23 Remco finished ahead of Thomas.

 

[shadowrider]

He didn't win the Tour in 2020 because he had a crash in 2018 where he injured his elbow.

Don't forget the crashes as a skijumper. So, seen his crashes in the far past but also in a more recent past and even last season, he will never be able to win a GT anymore. And certainly not the Tour. So, we all agree. Although I don't blame it on crashes..... that every rider experiences during their career. With your point of view Evenepoel would easily have won Lombardia and the Giro 2020 without his terrible crash during the Lombardia. And won the Giro 2021 without his long rehabilitation and inactivity. And won.....

 

[Bolder]

My memory is fine. But did Roglic won the Vuelta 2023 ? He tried to and attacked the last week (against teamorders). But didn't succeed. He was brought back by "weaker" opponents. Evenepoel would have beaten Roglic for sure in the Giro, without covid. Obvious after the first stage...... and after seeing struggle Roglic till the last day before beat the old Thomas with seconds. And I am still waiting for the answer why Roglic hasn't won the Tour yet.... and especially the Tour 2020 when he was at his toplevel.

He should have won the Tour in 2020. That was a mental, not physical failure. He didn't sleep the night before and panicked during the ITT. Plus, the goofy helmet. 🙂

We'll never know about the 2023 Vuelta since neither he nor Vingegaard raced it straight up after Kuss got in that break. Given what happened to Remco in the Vuelta, it's a stretch to say he would have beaten him for sure in the Giro. If top riders are not there then everyone else's strategy changes. What if Tao was still in the race with G? Ineos can roll attacks on Remco and Roglic...

 

[bNator]

Don't forget the crashes as a skijumper. So, seen his crashes in the far past but also in a more recent past and even last season, he will never be able to win a GT anymore. And certainly not the Tour. So, we all agree. Although I don't blame it on crashes..... that every rider experiences during their career. With your point of view Evenepoel would easily have won Lombardia and the Giro 2020 without his terrible crash during the Lombardia. And won the Giro 2021 without his long rehabilitation and inactivity. And won.....

In fact, I think it's so certain he would have won 2020 Lombardia and Giro that Jakob and Tao should seriously consider handing their un-deserved trophies to Remco voluntarily... They can only be grateful if he accepts their tokens of good will given how long they have unjustly withheld them from their rightful owner.

 

[shadowrider]

He should have won the Tour in 2020. That was a mental, not physical failure. He didn't sleep the night before and panicked during the ITT. Plus, the goofy helmet. 🙂

We'll never know about the 2023 Vuelta since neither he nor Vingegaard raced it straight up after Kuss got in that break. Given what happened to Remco in the Vuelta, it's a stretch to say he would have beaten him for sure in the Giro. If top riders are not there then everyone else's strategy changes. What if Tao was still in the race with G? Ineos can roll attacks on Remco and Roglic...

You always win or loose (a GT) with the legs and the head.
Roglic didn't have the legs for winning the Vuelta 2023. He was good, but not at toplevel (anymore, due to his age ?). That was obvious in the TT. The last week he did attack (against teamorders), but it just blew back after a few minutes. Without the "Kuss-present", Vingegaard would have won with minutes, even not being at a toplevel (after the Tour).

 

[bNator]

You always win or loose (a GT) with the legs and the head.
Roglic didn't have the legs for winning the Vuelta 2023. He was good, but not at toplevel (anymore, due to his age ?). That was obvious in the TT. The last week he did attack (against teamorders), but it just blew back after a few minutes. Without the "Kuss-present", Vingegaard would have won with minutes, even not being at a toplevel (after the Tour).

I thought Remco would have won with minutes...