Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Cookster15]

Pantani is s huge climber but this mythical aura around him is very influenced by his early death.

That’s not true . Doubtful you were watching back then. I tend to agree with @Krzysztof_O. Pogacar and Vingegaard should be considered in the same tier - but not above. In 2022 TdF Pogi and Vingegaard climbed the Alpe in 39 minutes. Pantani’s record is 36’50”. On a non aero aluminium bike way back in 1995. Yes I know about clinic matters but his aura wasn’t because of his death. That was simply a tragedy.

 

[Cookster15]

Duh..the guy literally holds the records on so many climbs..

I mean, certain slovenian couldn't beat his record on Oropa, so I guess his aura isn't influenced by his death but by his actual skill.

I know, you'll probably say PdB but that climb is a maaajor outlier. I mean how many times do you see a climb being drilled from the bottom in such a way without stop even for a second?
Even Landa put a time comparable to Pantani's

Yes. Pretty sure that Pantani also holds the climbing record for Mont Ventoux? He also won the Giro-Tour double at a time when grand tours were dominated by powerful time trialists like Indurain, Ullrich and Riis.

 

[YavorD]

Yes. Pretty sure that Pantani also holds the climbing record for Mont Ventoux? He also won the Giro-Tour double at a time when grand tours were dominated by powerful time trialists like Indurain, Ullrich and Riis.

No, he doesn't.
It's Mayo.

 

[Cookster15]

No, he doesn't.
It's Mayo.

Depends where you check. Please provide the link? If memory serves me correctly Mayo set that time in the Dauphine - 2003? My times are set in the Tour.

 

[YavorD]

Depends where you check. Please provide the link? If memory serves me correctly Mayo set that time in the Dauphine - 2003? My times are set in the Tour.

2004* but yeah, Dauphiné.
It seems like a lot of sources doesn't cover the full climb which is 21 kilometres.

Speed & Glory on Mont Ventoux: TOP 50 fastest rides on the Giant of Provence

© Cyclingnews/John Pierce 1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h 2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h 3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan V...

www.climbing-records.com

 

[Cookster15]

2004* but yeah, Dauphiné.
It seems like a lot of sources doesn't cover the full climb which is 21 kilometres.

Speed & Glory on Mont Ventoux: TOP 50 fastest rides on the Giant of Provence

© Cyclingnews/John Pierce 1. 2004: 55:51 Iban Mayo 23.10 km/h 2. 2004: 56:26 Tyler Hamilton 22.86 km/h 3. 1999: 56:50 Jonathan V...

www.climbing-records.com

Thanks. So 2004. Not sure if it was 2003 or 2004 that Mayo boasted he could challenge Armstrong at the Tour but instead flopped. Pantani still the king of climbers in most eyes. Lance also couldn’t knock off Marco’s record in the 2004 AdH MTT.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Are we comparing climbing times? Even 80 kg riders were absolutely smashing climbing records in the 90s. We need to go to other part of this forum, if we want to discuss the 90s.

 

[Red Rick]

Magical thinking that Pantani was as good as Pogacar and Vingegaard are now.

Like I like to complain about Pogacar moto drafting but Pantani was got a CO rebreather treatment from the 16 motors 2 picometers in front of him every single climb.

 

[Peyroteo94]

That’s not true . Doubtful you were watching back then. I tend to agree with @Krzysztof_O. Pogacar and Vingegaard should be considered in the same tier - but not above. In 2022 TdF Pogi and Vingegaard climbed the Alpe in 39 minutes. Pantani’s record is 36’50”. On a non aero aluminium bike way back in 1995. Yes I know about clinic matters but his aura wasn’t because of his death. That was simply a tragedy.

It was a tragedy but incresead his mythical aura.

 

[Froome]

Are we comparing climbing times? Even 80 kg riders were absolutely smashing climbing records in the 90s. We need to go to other part of this forum, if we want to discuss the 90s.

You also need to go to the other part of this forum to discuss the era they are now.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You also need to go to the other part of this forum to discuss the era they are now.

Every era needs to be discussed in the other part of this forum. You clearly understood what I said but you are trying to be naive to disrupt my point

 

[Extinction]

Probably the best climber before the current era but I think both Pogacar and Vingegaard are in the same tier as him now.

It's impossibile to compare eras. Sure, the speeds have increased and you have to wonder were Pantani riding today how much faster uphill he would be; but if you are going on spectacle, on the feelings given to fans when he inevitably attacked, Pantani is still number one in my book. Personally, after Pantani, Contador pre-clengate was exciting, whereas I just don't get big excitement from Pogacar or Vingegaard even though there performances are fuori classe.

 

[Cookster15]

Pantani didn't win a GT against Indurain

That’s true. Their careers overlapped. Marco was a better climber than Indurain but no match against the clock (nobody was). Agree with you about Jan, but imagine what Der Kaiser might have been capable of had he the discipline and strength of mind of Armstrong? Frightening!

 

[Miha81]

Best climber is Pogacar or Vingegaard. Pantani was mythical because of his panache, charisma and ability to climb but his "death increased his aura". Just like Senna.

So you are confirming that Pantani was mythical climber as Senna was certanly faster that anybody in his era

 

[Netserk]

That’s not true . Doubtful you were watching back then. I tend to agree with @Krzysztof_O. Pogacar and Vingegaard should be considered in the same tier - but not above. In 2022 TdF Pogi and Vingegaard climbed the Alpe in 39 minutes. Pantani’s record is 36’50”. On a non aero aluminium bike way back in 1995. Yes I know about clinic matters but his aura wasn’t because of his death. That was simply a tragedy.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1812888145978888443

View: https://x.com/ammattipyoraily/status/1812888145978888443

 

[Netserk]

Are we comparing climbing times? Even 80 kg riders were absolutely smashing climbing records in the 90s. We need to go to other part of this forum, if we want to discuss the 90s.

One man's modus ponens is another man's modus tollens.

 

[Red Rick]

Any metric by which Pantani was superior is purely in myth, and in being a product of his era. It has nothing to do with tangible results, and if Pogacar wants to capture that vibe he's more likely to do so dying from fentanyl overdose than winning 20 GTs and 30 monuments.

In other words, if we're gonna argue this on merit, there is none.

Now I invite people to call me a biased Pogacar stanboy

 

[Peyroteo94]

Any metric by which Pantani was superior is purely in myth, and in being a product of his era. It has nothing to do with tangible results, and if Pogacar wants to capture that vibe he's more likely to do so dying from fentanyl overdose than winning 20 GTs and 30 monuments.

In other words, if we're gonna argue this on merit, there is none.

Now I invite people to call me a biased Pogacar stanboy

Finally a person agreeing with me on this.

 

[Peyroteo94]

So you are confirming that Pantani was mythical climber as Senna was certanly faster that anybody in his era

I never said he wasn't a mythical climber. He is, however Vingo and Pogi are better (in level not in charisma/panache. Just to be clear...) IMHO.

 

[Miha81]

I never said he wasn't a mythical climber. He is, however Vingo and Pogi are better (in level not in charisma/panache. Just to be clear...) IMHO.

Honestly I do not know how to compare different eras in any sport. That is why I do not do them.

 

[Rob5091]

So he's brought himself a Porsche huh? MvdP has a Lambo so, it aint so bad in the peloton now!

 

[James M]

Pretty mad to read competitors talking like this:




"We have to be realistic, there's nothing we can do. Pogačar can race without calculating his effort. Van der Poel can too, but us humans have got to think carefully about every effort we make in a race," Bettiol said.

"I hope Pogačar attacks early on Saturday, after UAE hurt everyone on the San Martino in Grania sector with 100km to race. He can clear off, do his thing, and things fall into place.

"That's safer for him, he can avoid any crashes and pace his effort. If he gains a minute, he can have the team car with him in case he punctures. For the rest of us it'll then be fast and furious behind as we race for second place. I like our chances for a place on the podium alongside Pogačar.

"That's still a result anyone and everyone should be proud of. Being beaten by Pogačar is not a dishonour, it's a 'success' to remember and cherish when we are old and retired and talk to our kids about our career and we understand just how good Pogačar was during his career."

Its mad indeed. But speaks volume. Its just like weve seen them all say, nothing new now, its nothing to be ashamed of and they can all cherish and talk to their kids about it years down the line.

Like Bettiol says its just being realistic. They all know who they are racing against at this point.

 

[James M]

The champ is here. He's coming to practice his already elite social distancing.

 

[Salvarani]

Pretty mad to read competitors talking like this:




"We have to be realistic, there's nothing we can do. Pogačar can race without calculating his effort. Van der Poel can too, but us humans have got to think carefully about every effort we make in a race," Bettiol said.

"I hope Pogačar attacks early on Saturday, after UAE hurt everyone on the San Martino in Grania sector with 100km to race. He can clear off, do his thing, and things fall into place.

"That's safer for him, he can avoid any crashes and pace his effort. If he gains a minute, he can have the team car with him in case he punctures. For the rest of us it'll then be fast and furious behind as we race for second place. I like our chances for a place on the podium alongside Pogačar.

"That's still a result anyone and everyone should be proud of. Being beaten by Pogačar is not a dishonour, it's a 'success' to remember and cherish when we are old and retired and talk to our kids about our career and we understand just how good Pogačar was during his career."

This is receiving the GOAT status from his peers. The respect and admiration that is there. Beautifully put here.

 

[Lequack]

With his GF Urska Zigart, who is also racing, now part of the new team AG Insurance - Soudal