Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[2WpK]

Pog's fitness is going to be better tomorrow than it was at FW. His decline at Amstel was residual from PR (I believe he underestimated how tiring it was since he had never done it before). Now that he has recovered from PR, I think he is only getting better. Also, FW took less out of him than his opponents.

 

[hayneplane]

There is no rider with a better win percentage in 250km + races than Evenepoel.

A stat that is helped by the fact he has only ever ridden the two monuments best suited to him unlike Pogacar and MVDP who have both done all 5 at least once in their career.

 

[Red Rick]

A stat that is helped by the fact he has only ever ridden the two monuments best suited to him unlike Pogacar and MVDP who have both done all 5 at least once in their career.

Lombardia has been under 250 km 3/4 times Evenepoel entered it, swaying the statistics. Evenepoels monument entries over 250km is literally only 3 races.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Lombardia has been under 250 km 3/4 times Evenepoel entered it, swaying the statistics. Evenepoels monument entries over 250km is literally only 3 races.

Wow, this means he probably raced less than 15 250km races in his life.

 

[scribers]

I've never lost a race over 250 km

 

[Cycling111]

Lombardy last year had 255 km and he won by a bigger margin than ever. 😩

 

[Peyroteo94]

If we count all monuments+ORR+WCRR+ other 250+ km races (only AGR. Both Pogacar and Remco never raced GW).
Remco has 4/14 wins = 28,5%
Pogacar has 10/28 wins = 35,7%

Now if Remco raced PR, RVV and MSR, his win percentage would probably go under 20%.

 

[James M]

I notice there is a poll - 61% think Pogi is the GOAT . So its not just a few regulars in the Pogacar thread.

I'm not surprised, as it's mostly opposition fans or Belgians protecting their national treasure, which, after all, makes sense. For most neutral, objective fans, one same win now compared to back then is significantly greater today in terms of greatness, and it's not exactly hard to figure out why.

If you think about it, how many current active pros or legends in the sport haven't already said the same openly in the press? I doubt they're all on this forum as well.. My point is only that I'm not surprised by that poll you saw at all. It's just a defense mechanism for someone, as it's already a hot topic in the real world, clearly. Besides, it's all subjective, so no answers are more or less wrong—so don't get me wrong.

 

[James M]

These things are best said prior to the race and not afterward when it's easy. Pogacar is on a downward trajectory while Remco is on the rise. Form-wise, Remco is likely ahead, and no one besides him in the entire peloton has a better chance, as he's the second-best in the world here out of everyone regardless. Remco is high level.

That being said, count me as impressed if Remco is between 30-40 seconds from Pogi tomorrow. I wouldn't mind being surprised or impressed, but I doubt it.

 

[YavorD]

For most neutral, objective fans, one same win now compared to back then is significantly greater today in terms of greatness

Wait, what? How many neutral and objective fans have watched Merckx, remember his wins vividly and can really compare "greatness"?
Most of the "neutral" fans are Pogacar fans or people who started watching 20-30 years ago, meaning Pogacar is the best rider they ever watched.
So they naturally think that Pogacar is the GOAT.
Recency bias is a thing.

 

[Medvind]

Remco isn't as consistent as Pog but he is still quite young and has had two difficult injuries, so I think there is still plenty of room for improvement. When he is on his A-game he is a formidable rider. Hard to argue with that. He is probably too light to ever be a contender in cobbles monument, and I agree he still has more to show in one week races.

I do think he took a crucial step in the tour last year and that this bodes well for the future. And seeing his high level already after only two months of training tells me he will have a strong second half of the season. Challenging Pog and Vinge in the tour? Nah, not yet, getting closer, yes I think so, at least to Vinge.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Wait, what? How many neutral and objective fans have watched Merckx, remember his wins vividly and can really compare "greatness"?
Most of the "neutral" fans are Pogacar fans or people who started watching 20-30 years ago, meaning Pogacar is the best rider they ever watched.
So they naturally think that Pogacar is the GOAT.
Recency bias is a thing.

It would be nice to know the opinion of riders who raced in the 80s. Both Saw Pogacar and Merckx and can have a neutral opinion.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Remco isn't as consistent as Pog but he is still quite young and has had two difficult injuries, so I think there is still plenty of room for improvement. When he is on his A-game he is a formidable rider. Hard to argue with that. He is probably too light to ever be a contender in cobbles monument, and I agree he still has more to show in one week races.

I do think he took a crucial step in the tour last year and that this bodes well for the future. And seeing his high level already after only two months of training tells me he will have a strong second half of the season. Challenging Pog and Vinge in the tour? Nah, not yet, getting closer, yes I think so, at least to Vinge.

Why people (not just you) keep saying he is getting closer in GTs? Last year was the first time he rode a GT against Vingo and Pogi so we don't have a previous GT to compare performances. He was more than 9 minutes behind! Getting closer would mean he would be able to contest the second place this year. He will not be able, because he did his best performance ever (and can't see him beating a Pogacar without the Giro in his legs and a fully healthy Vingo) but still lost more than 9 minutes (only because Pogacar didn't attack on Couillole, if he did, gap would be more than 10 minutes). Will he improve? Of course! If it will be enough, of course not. Not this year and not in the next 2-4 years. Unfortunately for him, he born in the same era of the best rider of all times (or close to be the best).

 

[Cycling111]

Why people (not just you) keep saying he is getting closer in GTs? Last year was the first time he rode a GT against Vingo and Pogi so we don't have a previous GT to compare performances. He was more than 9 minutes behind! Getting closer would mean he would be able to contest the second place this year. He will not be able, because he did his best performance ever (and can't see him beating a Pogacar without the Giro in his legs and a fully healthy Vingo) but still lost more than 9 minutes (only because Pogacar didn't attack on Couillole, if he did gap would be more than 10 minutes). Will he improve? Of course! If it will be enough, of course not. Not this year and not in the next 2-4 years. Unfortunately for him, he born in the same era of the best rider of all times (or close to be the best).

Remco also met Vingegaard in Vuelta 2023.

In GT, he can't compare to Pogacar.
Pogacar has always been a podium in GT, regardless of age. His worst result was a third place in his first GT.

Last year, Remco wasn't a rival to Pogacar in any of the Tour's mountain stages. He wasn't close.

First, he'd have to take the step toward becoming a rival in GT. From there, he could aim to surpass him, but you can't say he's close if Pogacar was never aware of him in any of the Tour's mountain stages. Pogacar was only concerned about Vingegaard.

 

[Medvind]

Why people (not just you) keep saying he is getting closer in GTs? Last year was the first time he rode a GT against Vingo and Pogi so we don't have a previous GT to compare performances. He was more than 9 minutes behind! Getting closer would mean he would be able to contest the second place this year. He will not be able, because he did his best performance ever (and can't see him beating a Pogacar without the Giro in his legs and a fully healthy Vingo) but still lost more than 9 minutes (only because Pogacar didn't attack on Couillole, if he did gap would be more than 10 minutes). Will he improve? Of course! If it will be enough, of course not. Not this year and not in the next 2-4 years. Unfortunately for him, he born in the same era of the best rider of all times (or close to be the best).

It's was his first tour and he came third and showed a consistency we feared he might not have. Think this gives him necessary confidence to try to continue to improve as a GT rider. Build up wasn't perfect last year because of the crash. I was worried when I saw him in Dauphine, but in the tour he gained a higher level. Build up will probably be better this year even if he was injured from december to february. What he has shown already after just two months of training is promising.

I won't be as definate as you and say he will never get close to Pog and Vinge, (at least not in the near future) I want to see what he can do with a good build up for the tour. Maybe he will never get close och closer, but I will hold my judgement a bit longer before I pass my final judgement. He is still quite young, some reach there top level in GT's between 25-30.

And you can be calm, I not claiming he will reach Pog's level.

 

[James M]

Remco isn't as consistent as Pog but he is still quite young and has had two difficult injuries, so I think there is still plenty of room for improvement. When he is on his A-game he is a formidable rider. Hard to argue with that. He is probably too light to ever be a contender in cobbles monument, and I agree he still has more to show in one week races.

Nah, not yet, getting closer, yes I think so, at least to Vinge.

I said this before the season: Remco biologically he has plenty of room to grow, from an outside perspective looking in, in several key areas biological. I expect Remco to grow stronger/add more watt relative to most others —I said this before the season, especially in comparison to Vingegaard and were not talking age here. Of course, it's still premature to conclude of anything this season and were certaintly not doing that, but yeah, I said this before season, its very logical but not a given, were also talking about improving nothing else, so everyone relax.

There are too many people looking to the past for answers in a sport where the bar moves forward every year especially now its very progressing—it’s fascinating yet never learn. There are so many examples of good riders being left behind by doing the same numbers they did two years cause they simply cant further improve cause their reached their ceiling and being 'washed' relative to others now. Looking backward for answers here instead of forward will always leave you surprised.

 

[yaf2]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916216215518777845

View: https://x.com/cycloben2/status/1916216215518777845?t=i_uH9JBPAhE_yZsNnyj5lQ&s=19

 

[Peyroteo94]

It's was his first tour and he came third and showed a consistency we feared he might not have. Think this gives him necessary confidence to try to continue to improve as a GT rider. Build up wasn't perfect last year because of the crash. I was worried when I saw him in Dauphine, but in the tour he gained a higher level. Build up will probably be better this year even if he was injured from december to february. What he has shown already after just two months of training is promising.

I won't be as definate as you and say he will never get close to Pog and Vinge, (at least not in the near future) I want to see what he can do with a good build up for the tour. Maybe he will never get close och closer, but I will hold my judgement a bit longer before I pass my final judgement. He is still quite young, some reach there top level in GT's between 25-30.

And you can be calm, I not claiming he will reach Pog's level.

I'm calm mate, don't worry. But I need to see him closing the gap to Vingegaard and Pogacar.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916216215518777845

View: https://x.com/cycloben2/status/1916216215518777845?t=i_uH9JBPAhE_yZsNnyj5lQ&s=19

Let‘s ignore the elephant in the room and just ask why Ciccone is in there two days after showing a moderate level at the Tour of the Alps which was raced way too hard for me to see a chance for him at any result. Badly thought through engagement bait

 

[Peyroteo94]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916216215518777845

View: https://x.com/cycloben2/status/1916216215518777845?t=i_uH9JBPAhE_yZsNnyj5lQ&s=19

I don't mind seeing someone giving more favoritism to Remco but putting Pogacar with Pidcock, Healy and Ciccone is wild.

 

[Netserk]

It's the usual low-quality engagement bait from that account, well worth a mute or outright block

 

[Cycling111]

This tweeter has signed for Domestique account, they don't like Pogacar very much

Preferences aside, they can't put Pogacar alongside two other riders. Or if they put Pogacar as the favorite, they can't put Remco alongside two others.

McNulty at Skjelmose's level?
McNulty is bit wors than last year, and if he's Pogacar's last domestique like in Amstel, he won't have a chance of winning.

Skjelmose will be the leader of LIDL, I don't understand why Ciccone has more options.

 

[Lequack]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916216215518777845

View: https://x.com/cycloben2/status/1916216215518777845?t=i_uH9JBPAhE_yZsNnyj5lQ&s=19

 

[scribers]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916163274124444079

View: https://x.com/xinirnix/status/1916163274124444079?s=46&t=X4NqNG7J5ZQ-MxPOi53ECQ

 

[Peyroteo94]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1916163274124444079

View: https://x.com/xinirnix/status/1916163274124444079?s=46&t=X4NqNG7J5ZQ-MxPOi53ECQ

5 years to win Vuelta, PR and MSR. Then he will be the GOAT. I'm also wondering how many years left, Vingegaard has in his career.