Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[James M]

I dont know if you not over rate Jonas a little. The gap between him and Pog is big.

On this particukar topic, he severely overrates Vingegaard. He said he would drop everyone in Algarve and Nice too so yeah. I dont get this looking behind for answer thing as its any relevence to now and wont give you anything but the wrong aswers oh well. Not that it matters.

He also thinks Vismas mediocer team now, with Kuss, are better climbers than Almeida, at least he's consistent

 

[HashRouge]

As a Pogi fan I still fear a rise of Vingegaard too.

According to data the best version of Vingegaard was 2024 PdB - not when he defeated Pogacar in the Tour twice as he never hit those sustained watts/kg. But taking away his Itzulia crash logically Jonas should be capable of a higher level. Mostly less fade in the 3rd week., not so much a higher peak level since he already did his best ever peak climbing performance at PdB.

After PdB Vingegaard dropped time on stages 19 ,20 and 21. Whilst he was still good enough to beat Remco at the Nice TT I think the time lost over the last 3 stages can be put down to his rushed preparation and loss of base-load conditioning. And the most obvious fade was 19 - Bonette.

Same here. I have nightmares about that TT followed by the Col de la Loze stage

I will never underestimate Jonas Vingegaard. He's a superb GT rider and if he can get to July in top form, I don't see why he couldn't compete for the victory. I don't read too much into last year for the reasons you say. The Itzulia crash had to have affected him, particularly further through the Tour. It really impacted his ability to push Pogacar to the limit of climbs like Bonette.

I hope he can be good this year anyway, I like Pogacar more when he has a battle on his hands, a la MSR, Flanders and Roubaix this year.

 

[Peyroteo94]

On this particukar topic, he severely overrates Vingegaard. He said he would drop everyone in Algarve and Nice too so yeah. I dont get this looking behind for answer thing as its any relevence to now and wont give you anything but the wrong aswers oh well. Not that it matters.

He also thinks Vismas mediocer team now, with Kuss, are better climbers than Almeida, at least he's consistent

Maybe he had a different approach this year. But I can ensure one thing, if I overrate Vingegaard, what you do with Remco is even worse.
And you ask Pogacar who is his biggest rival and he will say Vingegaard. Vingegaard is the guy who made Pogacar better, the guy who Pogacar looks every morning and works 6 hours a day to not lose against him. Not MVP, it's Vingegaard. I don't have any doubt in mind. I am sure I am not overrating him, he is a freak in July and Visma is putting all their eggs in the Tour. They will be good!

 

[Peyroteo94]

I must admit that what I'm waiting for is an attempt on a Giro-Tour-Vuelta season.
Last year was off the cards on account of the worlds.

The next obvious season would be 2029 (sprint Worlds, no Olympics), but it could happen after any future Giro-Tour if a 3rd or 4th Worlds was thought to be less of an incentive.
I don't see it being announced in advance of a Tour win.

Me too. 2029 is the year! 30 years old is a good age for the Real Treble!

 

[Tanakka]

Vuelta adds a lot. 11 GTs (unless he wins 6 TdF) is his goal and he needs to win all 3

Yeah, I know, but my point is that, let's be honest: it's just because of how it looks on paper having the full "check list" of GTs.

In reality, everyone is well aware of the fact that someone like Pogacar could easily be able to win the Vuelta.
If you are able to both win/dominate multiple TdFs and win/dominate multiple LBLs and GdLs, being able to win a Vuelta is almost a given.

On the other hand... many were saying that Pogi wasn't heavy enough to be competitive at Roubaix.
Therefore: how (well) Tadej did at Roubaix was actually meaningful.

 

[James M]

Maybe he had a different approach this year. But I can ensure one thing, if I overrate Vingegaard, what you do with Remco is even worse.
And you ask Pogacar who is his biggest rival and he will say Vingegaard. Vingegaard is the guy who made Pogacar better, the guy who Pogacar looks every morning and works 6 hours a day to not lose against him. Not MVP, it's Vingegaard. I don't have any doubt in mind. I am sure I am not overrating him, he is a freak in July and Visma is putting all their eggs in the Tour. They will be good!

I don’t overrate Evenepoel. When I speak about Evenepoel, I talk about improving, two entirely different things. Evenepoel isnt close to Vingegaard in GT's or MvdP classics, not even remotely it goes without saying so dont worrie.

Last Tour, you said on the first rest day that Vingegaard would win even, so your track record isn’t exactly on your side regarding this particular topic. I haven’t seen you be right about a single projection about him even this year every race and when you say Visma is a better climbing team than UAE now I dont know what to say but laugh sorry, thats not the reality, thats 22, so you’ll have to accept that I have a different opinion—and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I usually think you’re spot on more often than not so no worries, there’s nothing wrong with different opinions now and then. I just think you severely overrate him based on the past without taking into account present things.

 

[James M]

As a Pogi fan I still fear a rise of Vingegaard too.

According to data the best version of Vingegaard was 2024 PdB - not when he defeated Pogacar in the Tour twice as he never hit those sustained watts/kg. But taking away his Itzulia crash logically Jonas should be capable of a higher level. Mostly less fade in the 3rd week., not so much a higher peak level since he already did his best ever peak climbing performance at PdB.

After PdB Vingegaard dropped time on stages 19 ,20 and 21. Whilst he was still good enough to beat Remco at the Nice TT I think the time lost over the last 3 stages can be put down to his rushed preparation and loss of base-load conditioning. And the most obvious fade was 19 - Bonette.

Dont get me wrong I hope too, its nice with a battle but I don’t mean this disrespectfully or to diminish previous results, but it’s not a nice way of saying it. I think Vingegaard is more 'washed' than WVA (and were talking relative speaking). From a biological standpoint, it’s very logical. I mentioned it before the season started because I suspected it might begin happening, so I’m not jumping on any bandwagon.

I just don’t think, from a biological perspective, that he can push and further improve much relative to others—the signs are already there. There are far too many other variables at play for him to significantly increase his level, which is what it would take to even come close. That said, it’s far too early to tell for sure. I’m not claiming that this is the case, only that I think in a year’s time it will be well known.

To be clear, I genuinely hope I’m wrong about this—I just want to make sure that’s understood. Vingegaard is obviously the one with the best chances to give him a fight in GT, theres zero doubt about that. But yeah, it would surprise me alooooot if he’s within even three minutes cause not only does he need to catch up a bigger than ever deficit, Pogacar gonne be better than that aswell so if hes within 3 minutes ill gladly admit im wrong. and hope i am.

 

[Cookster15]

Dont get me wrong I hope too, its nice with a battle but I don’t mean this disrespectfully or to diminish previous results, but it’s not a nice way of saying it. I think Vingegaard is more 'washed' than WVA (and were talking relative speaking). From a biological standpoint, it’s very logical. I mentioned it before the season started because I suspected it might begin happening, so I’m not jumping on any bandwagon.

I just don’t think, from a biological perspective, that he can push and further improve much relative to others—the signs are already there. There are far too many other variables at play for him to significantly increase his level, which is what it would take to even come close. That said, it’s far too early to tell for sure. I’m not claiming that this is the case, only that I think in a year’s time it will be well known.

To be clear, I genuinely hope I’m wrong about this—I just want to make sure that’s understood. Vingegaard is obviously the one with the best chances to give him a fight in GT, theres zero doubt about that. But yeah, it would surprise me alooooot if he’s within even three minutes cause not only does he need to catch up a bigger than ever deficit, Pogacar gonne be better than that aswell so if hes within 3 minutes ill gladly admit im wrong. and hope i am.

At the Tour Pogacar had a 3 minute lead after Plateau de Beille. The final gap at Nice was 6 minutes. That 3 minute blow out can be put back to lack of preparation time. I am just trying to be conservative in my predictions here rather than predicting another Pogacar walkover.

Biologically Vingegaard's fans think he has the highest ceiling ever seen. I don't believe that but I do think with perfect prep the gap closes hugely but Pog still wins comfortably.

But what I am sensing now is Vingegaard's state of mind might be his biggest challenge?

 

[James M]

At the Tour Pogacar had a 3 minute lead after Plateau de Beille. The final gap at Nice was 6 minutes. That 3 minute blow out can be put back to lack of preparation time. I am just trying to be conservative in my predictions here rather than predicting another Pogacar walkover.

Biologically Vingegaard's fans think he has the highest ceiling ever seen. I don't believe that but I do think with perfect prep the gap closes hugely but Pog still wins comfortably.

But what I am sensing now is Vingegaard's state of mind might be his biggest challenge?

Indeed, from that perspective, along with the fact that Vingegaard didn’t have an optimal preparation. On that merit alone, I totally agree 100% — he still have to catch up to a deficit bigger than ever and a improving Pog which again I agree with you, Pog still wins comfortable but not as much. But my problem is only that I just don’t think he can further push and improve relative to others, which is what I suspected would start happening for him before the season began. If that’s the case, then those points become irrelevant (points which, btw, I do agree on). Even though from a biological standpoints its logical from several points he hasnt much to improve on, its not a fact or the case yet and lets hope he can severly improve, everyone allowed to hope, lets see.

I think he’s a tough cookie, honestly. He might have been surprised by something he realized, or maybe he’s starting to dislike this lifestyle more—could be a lot of things, could be nothing. I don’t know, but yeah, he does seem to be going through something.

 

[hayneplane]

At some point, the WC will not be as compelling to him as the Vuelta. That is currently not the case but things change over time.

It’s complicated by the fact that the WCs are on such a sustained run of parcours wildly suited to Pogacar that winning 4 in a row is not an absurd take yet the normal sequence would throw in at least 1 edition that favours the sprinters or at least the fastest finishing classics riders like MVDP and Pedersen.

If you had a Copenhagen or Qatar type route then he might even skip it entirely and try to win all three grand tours in the calendar year.

 

[scribers]

It’s complicated by the fact that the WCs are on such a sustained run of parcours wildly suited to Pogacar that winning 4 in a row is not an absurd take yet the normal sequence would throw in at least 1 edition that favours the sprinters or at least the fastest finishing classics riders like MVDP and Pedersen.

If you had a Copenhagen or Qatar type route then he might even skip it entirely and try to win all three grand tours in the calendar year.

Multiple WC has been done. Legend status is with a single year GT treble!

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don’t overrate Evenepoel. When I speak about Evenepoel, I talk about improving, two entirely different things. Evenepoel isnt close to Vingegaard in GT's or MvdP classics, not even remotely it goes without saying so relax.

Last Tour, you said on the first rest day that Vingegaard would win even, so your track record isn’t exactly on your side regarding this particular topic. I haven’t seen you be right about a single projection about him even this year every race and when you say Visma is a better climbing team than UAE now I dont know what to say but laugh sorry, thats not the reality, thats 22, so you’ll have to accept that I have a different opinion—and there’s nothing wrong with that.

I usually think you’re spot on more often than not so no worries, there’s nothing wrong with different opinions now and then. I just think you severely overrate him based on the past without taking into account present things.

You are right, I really said Vingegaard would win the Tour after stage 11 but I also said Pogacar would win TdF 2023 after Puy de Dome and Vingegaard won.
This year, Vingegaard won Volta ao Algarve (despite not winning the MTF) so I wasn't wrong. In PN, he crashed out. If not, do you really believe he wouldn't have won? Even after Almeida got so badly later in the race?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Multiple WC has been done. Legend status is with a single year GT treble!

Hell yeah Scribers! He can win Giro-Tour-Vuelta. At least he needs to try! Roglic is almost retiring, Vingegaard is having his worst time ever, Remco is not a GC threat so a clean path for the biggest feat in cycling!

 

[Tonton]

I dont know if you not over rate Jonas a little. The gap between him and Pog is big.

I disagree with you, friend: the gap is not big. Jonas knows that he can beat Tadej in July, he has done it, twice. When Tadej thought that the gap was big, he lost. Twice.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I disagree with you, friend: the gap is not big. Jonas knows that he can beat Tadej in July, he has done it, twice. When Tadej thought that the gap was big, he lost. Twice.

Yeah, he underestimated Jonas and then Granon happened.

 

[Savant12]

I think every Pog fan wants to see him ride against a peak Vingo. The two of them would just destroy the rest of the GC field.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think every Pog fan wants to see him ride against a peak Vingo. The two of them would just destroy the rest of the GC field.

They will, it is a sure deal.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He just ended his classics season and he is completely leading this stat. MVP is miles behind so I just ask what metrics do other people use to say MVP is a better classics rider?
Or it is just bias?

UCI Rankings Riders Update | Tadej Pogacar at the very top after another Liège-Bastogne-Liège win

With Flèche Wallonne and Liège-Bastogne-Liège taking place in the past week, there were lots of UCI points awarded. Tadej Pogacar had until now been in a tight battle with Mathieu van der Poel and Mad...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[Cycling111]

He just ended his classics season and he is completely leading this stat. MVP is miles behind so I just ask what metrics do other people use to say MVP is a better classics rider?
Or it is just bias?

UCI Rankings Riders Update | Tadej Pogacar at the very top after another Liège-Bastogne-Liège win

With Flèche Wallonne and Liège-Bastogne-Liège taking place in the past week, there were lots of UCI points awarded. Tadej Pogacar had until now been in a tight battle with Mathieu van der Poel and Mad...

cyclinguptodate.com

Those who don't consider Pogacar the best in the classics do so because they've decided not to consider the Ardennes and the Italian classics as classics.

When Gilbert, or De Vlaeminck in the past, won them, they were considered classics

The most contradictory thing is that people considered Remco one of the best classics riders, even though he's never performed in San Remo or the cobbles Monuments. Now it seems he doesn't even count in Liège...
So, to consider Remco one of the best in classics, what classics were they based on?

 

[assisting]

Jonas knows that he can beat Tadej in July, he has done it, twice. When Tadej thought that the gap was big, he lost. Twice.

Vingegaard won two times, but that does not mean he can do it again against a more capable Pogačar. He should certainly believe so if he is healthy and has a good preparation. And I surely hope he will be at his best come July and wish him luck. He was very good last year after his major crash, but it seems it was very hard to get to this point and loosing by such a big margin was unexpected by his team.

But I don't get where Pogačar underestimated Vingegaard twice. 2022 Visma was extremely strong and had two main contenders who attacked him until he cracked. He was not racing smart (which I like at times, same with van der Poel when he was younger). 2023 Vingegaard was the favorite anyway and Pogačar was not strong enough after his injury.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Those who don't consider Pogacar the best in the classics do so because they've decided not to consider the Ardennes and the Italian classics as classics.

When Gilbert, or De Vlaeminck in the past, won them, they were considered classics

The most contradictory thing is that people considered Remco one of the best classics riders, even though he's never performed in San Remo or the cobbles Monuments. Now it seems he doesn't even count in Liège...
So, to consider Remco one of the best in classics, what classics were they based on?

There is a difference between different opinions and silliness. Someone saying grass is green and other person saying grass is red, this is not a different opinion, this is just silliness (to not say other thing even worse...).

 

[BubbaChuck]

urska and tadej have contest,who can sip coffe in the morning,while having lower heart rate.bahhhha.this man is crazy.

 

[scribers]

Pogacar lined up as the undisputed favorite for La Doyenne and absolutely delivered on that expectation. “There was no way he was going to get beaten,” (Geraint) Thomas said. “I heard him afterwards saying that people claiming he’d gotten weaker after the Amstel Gold Race don’t know cycling. I think they do know cycling, just not Pogacar. The way he was riding… unreal.”
To illustrate just how dominant he was, Thomas shared a moment from during the race. “Liège kicks off uphill, right? The fight for the early break was already on, and we were riding at over 400 watts. Then I hear, ‘Hey G Thomas,’ and I look back, it’s Pogacar. He pulls up next to me and just starts chatting, about a new Richard Mille watch or something he was going to check out the next day. I was thinking, we’re doing 420 watts and you want to have a conversation? I felt alright, but I was just trying to breathe. He really is on another level.”

 

[Peyroteo94]

Pogacar lined up as the undisputed favorite for La Doyenne and absolutely delivered on that expectation. “There was no way he was going to get beaten,” (Geraint) Thomas said. “I heard him afterwards saying that people claiming he’d gotten weaker after the Amstel Gold Race don’t know cycling. I think they do know cycling, just not Pogacar. The way he was riding… unreal.”
To illustrate just how dominant he was, Thomas shared a moment from during the race. “Liège kicks off uphill, right? The fight for the early break was already on, and we were riding at over 400 watts. Then I hear, ‘Hey G Thomas,’ and I look back, it’s Pogacar. He pulls up next to me and just starts chatting, about a new Richard Mille watch or something he was going to check out the next day. I was thinking, we’re doing 420 watts and you want to have a conversation? I felt alright, but I was just trying to breathe. He really is on another level.”

GT is Pogacar's biggest fan eheheh. He is always praising as the best ever and he is not wrong.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar lined up as the undisputed favorite for La Doyenne and absolutely delivered on that expectation. “There was no way he was going to get beaten,” (Geraint) Thomas said. “I heard him afterwards saying that people claiming he’d gotten weaker after the Amstel Gold Race don’t know cycling. I think they do know cycling, just not Pogacar. The way he was riding… unreal.”
To illustrate just how dominant he was, Thomas shared a moment from during the race. “Liège kicks off uphill, right? The fight for the early break was already on, and we were riding at over 400 watts. Then I hear, ‘Hey G Thomas,’ and I look back, it’s Pogacar. He pulls up next to me and just starts chatting, about a new Richard Mille watch or something he was going to check out the next day. I was thinking, we’re doing 420 watts and you want to have a conversation? I felt alright, but I was just trying to breathe. He really is on another level.”

420 watts and wanting to breathe? G. is a weakling!