Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Tim Cahill]

Training in Sierra Nevada with his posse

Like when someone brings their girlfriend to the pub.

 

[Cycling111]

But there is a possibility Isaac will be the third best GT rider in the world next year

I don't think so.
I just mentioned it in the Del Toro thread.

This Giro reminds me of Bernal's Tour or Cunego's Giro. Neither rider ended up dominating. Bernal had the accidente, but the Giro he won made it clear he wouldn't be dominant. Cunego never won again.
Both won at a young age, but the level of the GTs was very low.

Pogacar, for example, destroyed Carapaz in the 2020 and 2021 Tours; that Carapaz was far superior.

I'm going to wait for another Del Toro GT because for now, it seems more similar to Bernal's emergence in the Tour. For me, that Tour had a very low level; it was a transitional Tour between Froome and the new generation.

The level of this Giro is really low. His biggest rivals are declining riders, and Gee, who was minutes behind Landa in the TDF, who was a domestique.

It's a great achievement for Del Toro, but I haven't seen any signs of anything bigger yet.
I'm talking about GT. With the punch it has in the mid-mountain, it's going to be a big winner in many races.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don't think so.
I just mentioned it in the Del Toro thread.

This Giro reminds me of Bernal's Tour or Cunego's Giro. Neither rider ended up dominating. Bernal had the accidente, but the Giro he won made it clear he wouldn't be dominant. Cunego never won again.
Both won at a young age, but the level of the GTs was very low.

Pogacar, for example, destroyed Carapaz in the 2020 and 2021 Tours; that Carapaz was far superior.

I'm going to wait for another Del Toro GT because for now, it seems more similar to Bernal's emergence in the Tour. For me, that Tour had a very low level; it was a transitional Tour between Froome and the new generation.

The level of this Giro is really low. His biggest rivals are declining riders, and Gee, who was minutes behind Landa in the TDF, who was a domestique.

It's a great achievement for Del Toro, but I haven't seen any signs of anything bigger yet.
I'm talking about GT. With the punch it has in the mid-mountain, it's going to be a big winner in many races.

No one said Del Toro will dominate GTs. I said he can be the third best GT rider next year like Bernal was in 2020.

 

[James M]

But there is a possibility Isaac will be the third best GT rider in the world next year

There is a possibility as he gets older and stronger, he'll progress rapidly— id say 4-5 is more sensible but who knows with him. Just like many of UAE's best riders. Next year, Christen will also start to wreak some havoc I expect.(not GT), He was mighty impressive in Fleche already.

Don't forget Almeida in this he's not exactly declining at the moment wouldnt suprise me much if he beats the belgian.

 

[Peyroteo94]

There is a possibility as he gets older and stronger, he'll progress rapidly— id say 4-5 is more sensible but who knows with him. Just like many of UAE's best riders. Next year, Christen will also start to wreak some havoc I expect.(not GT), He was mighty impressive in Fleche already.

Don't forget Almeida in this he's not exactly declining at the moment wouldnt suprise me much if he beats the belgian.

Of course Almeida can improve too but Del Toro has more margin. Until this moment, I put Roglic as the third GT rider but this will change sooner than later.

 

[James M]

Del Toro is one of the few riders that intrigue me I’ve always said this, long before the Giro, etc. An extraordinary talent, so he’s definitely interesting to watch. But still, it doesn’t change the fact that it all pales in comparison to watching Pogacar, its like watching Formula E when ur accustomed the things he do now.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Del Toro is one of the few riders that intrigue me I’ve always said this, long before the Giro, etc. An extraordinary talent, so he’s definitely interesting to watch. But still, it doesn’t change the fact that it all pales in comparison to watching Pogacar, its like watching Formula E when ur accustomed the things he do now.

But what rider does not look like a Formula E car compared to Pogacar (F1)? In GTs, Vingegaard. In classics, MVP. That's it.

 

[Cycling111]

Del Toro is one of the few riders that intrigue me I’ve always said this, long before the Giro, etc. An extraordinary talent, so he’s definitely interesting to watch. But still, it doesn’t change the fact that it all pales in comparison to watching Pogacar, its like watching Formula E when ur accustomed the things he do now.

Not just Pogacar. I still wouldn't put him ahead of Remco or Roglic even if he wins the Giro.

Remco's third place in the 2024 Tour de France required a higher level than winning the Giro against this Carapaz.

O'Connor finished second in the Vuelta, Carapaz fourth. No one doubts that Remco's level was superior to O'Connor's.
This Giro must be contextualized in terms of its level. Winning it doesn't mean being third best. For me, Remco's third place in the Tour de France is far superior to this Giro.

It's like when Pogacar finished second in the Tour de France and Hindley won the Giro. Pogacar's second place was far superior to Hindley's level.

For me, it's not a Giro in which Del Toro demonstrated anything significant in the mountains, enough to draw further conclusions. That's why it reminds me of Bernal´s Tour or Cunego's Giro.
Even Cunego was more impressive in the mountains in the Giro he won, and even then he wasn't dominant.
The level of rivals can lead to a misleading perception

 

[Peyroteo94]

Not just Pogacar. I still wouldn't put him ahead of Remco or Roglic even if he wins the Giro.

Remco's third place in the 2024 Tour de France was better than beating this Carapaz.

Remco's performance was massively overrated. Similar scenario as Thomas in 2022

 

[James M]

But what rider does not look like a Formula E car compared to Pogacar (F1)? In GTs, Vingegaard. In classics, MVP. That's it.

MVDP is the only one with certainty in a very few classics, not the classics as a whole. Vingegaard in GT is still to be decided—that whole essence remains to be seen, and whether he can reach that new level first. The prior levels you refer and base it on won’t cut it, but let’s hope so—for entertainment, and if anyone can, it’s him. Let’s see first..

But in general, they all pale in comparison, throughout, their all Formula E in contrast throughout as a whole in comparison to how he is redefining modern cycling norms.

 

[Cycling111]

Remco's performance was massively overrated. Similar scenario as Thomas in 2022

No, and even if it were overrated, that third place requires a higher leve than winning the Giro againts this Carapaz, who isn't the same as the 2019-21

It reminds me of when Hindley won the Giro, Rogilc the Vuelta, and Pogacar finished second in 2022. Some people, to belittle him, said he was worse in the GT than them. No, Pogacar's level in 2022 Tour was far superior to Hindley's.
And I think this Carapaz is inferior to the 2022 Carapaz that Hindley beat.

Almeida finished fourth in the 2024 Tour, and I think 2024 Almeida, would´ve won this Giro with greater superiority than Del Toro or Carapaz.

The level of the Tour was much higher.

By the way, according to Gee's Strava data, they went below 6 watts today. With those watts, they'd be destroyed in the Tour.

 

[James M]

Not just Pogacar. I still wouldn't put him ahead of Remco or Roglic even if he wins the Giro.

Remco's third place in the 2024 Tour de France required a higher level an winning the Giro against this Carapaz.

O'Connor finished second in the Vuelta, Carapaz fourth. No one doubts that Remco's level was superior to O'Connor's.
This Giro must be contextualized in terms of its level. Winning it doesn't mean being third best. For me, Remco's third place in the Tour de France is far superior to this Giro.

It's like when Pogacar finished second in the Tour de France and Hindley won the Giro. Pogacar's second place was far superior to Hindley's level.

For me, it's not a Giro in which Del Toro demonstrated anything significant in the mountains, enough to draw further conclusions. That's why it reminds me of Bernal´s Tour or Cunego's Giro.
Even Cunego's Giro was more impressive in the mountains, and yet he wasn't dominant in the GT.

Indeed. It wasn’t factual it was merely that he’s incredibly young, and by that, he will only get stronger.
Something like 4-5 seems more sensible, but maybe not even that, maybe better, it’s hard to tell with a young guy like him how rapidly he will continue to improve.

This Giro demonstration in the mountains, to me, is not proof of that as of now either, it’s at a very underwhelming level, although it is exciting to see who will win blabla. But again, the point is more about how difficult it is to gauge his improvement—how much he improve as his body adapts to it more as he gets stronger. And because of that, it can’t be ruled out, considering his gigantic leap this year at least in consideration.

For his climbing in this Giro which we agree as a whole, while not super significant regarding the competition in the essence your point is, it’s still a quantum step above anything he has shown prior in the small sample size we have—a gigantic leap, anything remotely close to that again and he is up there. Its hard to gauge how rapidly he will continue improve as he gets stronger and adapt specifically for it more. Nothing else than that I meant by not ruling out its a possibility!

 

[Cycling111]

Indeed. It wasn’t factual it was merely that he’s incredibly young, and by that, he will only get stronger.
Something like 4-5 seems more sensible, but maybe not even that, maybe better, it’s hard to tell with a young guy like him how rapidly he will continue to improve.

This Giro demonstration in the mountains, to me, is not proof of that as of now either, it’s at a very underwhelming level, although it is exciting to see who will win blabla. But again, the point is more about how difficult it is to gauge his improvement—how much he improve as his body adapts to it more as he gets stronger. And because of that, it can’t be ruled out, considering his gigantic leap this year at least in consideration.

For his climbing in this Giro which we agree as a whole, while not super significant regarding the competition in the essence your point is, it’s still a quantum step above anything he has shown prior in the small sample size we have—a gigantic leap, anything remotely close to that again and he is up there. Its hard to gauge how rapidly he will continue improve as he gets stronger and adapt specifically for it more. Nothing else than that I meant by not ruling out its a possibility!

Agree.

With this, I'm not saying that Del Toro won't be the third best in GT next year. What I'm saying is that we can't conclude that from this Giro.

I think Hindley in 2022 was superior in the mountains than Del Toro has been in the Giro (until today; maybe tomorrow Del Toro will destroy Finestre), and we've already seen that Hindley wasn't third.

For now, this Giro for Del Toro gives me the same vibe as Bernal and Cunego, and as I said, Cunego gave better feeling in the mountains.
He doesn't even give me the same feeling as Pogacar in the Vuelta who was third.

He does give me a better feeling than Remco in his early GT, but Remco in the TDF2024 was far superior to what we're seeing in this Giro.
I'd say that even Landa in the TDF2024 was superior, in the mountains without a doubt. Gee wasn't even close to Landa in any stage.

 

[Pogacsa]

Cunego's win in 2004 was very impressive. 4 stage wins! Did you even see it Cycling111??

And as for Remco's third place last year, it was a superb performance! I do wonder whether some of you even watch races!

 

[Peyroteo94]

Cunego's win in 2004 was very impressive. 4 stage wins! Did you even see it Cycling111??

And as for Remco's third place last year, it was a superb performance! I do wonder whether some of you even watch races!

Losing almost 3 minutes in a MTF? Please...

 

[Cycling111]

Cunego's win in 2004 was very impressive. 4 stage wins! Did you even see it Cycling111??

And as for Remco's third place last year, it was a superb performance! I do wonder whether some of you even watch races!

Yes, I was saying that because of the level of his rivals. The favorite was his teammate, Simoni, and that was a determining factor. That reminds me of Bernal's Tour.
The real rival was G. Thomas, who being on his team, this made things easier for Bernal.

Alaphilippe has never been in the top five again, which shows that the level of that Tour was low. Even if Alaphilippe was in good shape.

In this Giro, we find Carapaz in his best form since 2022, Simon with a chance of winning since 2018, Gee close to the podium, Caruso near to the podium when a year ago he was seventeenth 50 minutes behind
Too many coincidences, many veteran ridersat their best = low level of the race.

I've already said that Cunego's level in the mountains was more impressive than Del Toro's, and I even consider Hindley's in 2022 to be superior (Carapaz tour podium previous year) and even so, they haven't been dominant cyclists.

Carapaz is going to the Tour this year. It will be interesting to see what he can do.

I'm stopping arguing about this. I'm arguing the same thing in two threads

 

[Peyroteo94]

Carapaz will fight for the polka dot jersey again. However a lot depends on how better Pogacar is compared to Vingegaard. If they are very even, Carapaz might win but if Pogacar is clearly better, I have a hard time seeing Carapaz winning

 

[Cycling111]

Carapaz will fight for the polka dot jersey again. However a lot depends on how better Pogacar is compared to Vingegaard. If they are very even, Carapaz might win but if Pogacar is clearly better, I have a hard time seeing Carapaz winning

Like Fortunato, because he knows he has no chance of even be in the podium.
I´d be surprised if Simon finishes in the top 5of the Tour. In any case, he´ll finish more than 20 minutes behind third.

That's why Hindley's Giro, athletically, seemed of a higher level. That Carapaz was third in the Tour previous year; this one wasn't even third in the Vuelta.

And the top3 were left alone in many stages in 2022.
That didn't happen at this Giro, except tuesday, due to a bad route and poor performance.
A veteran like Caruso hasn´t been clearly dropped in the mountains by the top two in this Giro.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Like Fortunato, because he knows he has no chance of even be in the podium.
I´d be surprised if Simon finishes in the top 5of the Tour. In any case, he´ll finish more than 20 minutes behind third.

That's why Hindley's Giro, athletically, seemed of a higher level. That Carapaz was third in the Tour previous year; this one wasn't even third in the Vuelta.

And the top3 were left alone in many stages in 2022.
That didn't happen at this Giro, except tuesday, due to a bad route and poor performance.
A veteran like Caruso hasn´t been clearly dropped in the mountains by the top two in this Giro.

Simon will not ride for the GC. Just like Adam, he will cruise for 11 days and then work for Vingegaard.

 

[Cycling111]

Simon will not ride for the GC. Just like Adam, he will cruise for 11 days and then work for Vingegaard.

Adam didn't ride for the GC last year and finished seventh. Landa was fifth.

If this Giro had a high level, he'd be in the top five TDF even if he´ll be a domestique.
Even so, Simon is much better than his brother. The worrying thing is that Adam doesn't have a chance of a podium in a Giro like this.

What will UAE think after today?

That difference with Majka, having worked much less than him. Adam's situation is worrying.

Do you think UAE will make any changes to the Tour roster?

13	9	▼4	YATES Adam	UAE Team Emirates - XRG			15:51
14	14	-	PIGANZOLI Davide	Team Polti VisitMalta			16:31
15	16	▲1	MAJKA Rafał	UAE Team Emirates - XRG			18:30

 

[Peyroteo94]

Adam didn't ride for the GC last year and finished seventh. Landa was fifth.

If this Giro had a high level, he'd be in the top five TDF even if he´ll be a domestique.
Even so, Simon is much better than his brother. The worrying thing is that Adam doesn't have a chance of a podium in a Giro like this.

What will UAE think after today?

That difference with Majka, having worked much less than him. Adam's situation is worrying.

Do you think UAE will make any changes to the Tour roster?

13	9	▼4	YATES Adam	UAE Team Emirates - XRG			15:51
14	14	-	PIGANZOLI Davide	Team Polti VisitMalta			16:31
15	16	▲1	MAJKA Rafał	UAE Team Emirates - XRG			18:30

Majka was cruising in the first part of this Giro.

 

[Cycling111]

Majka was cruising in the first part of this Giro.

Honestly, Narvaez is a better tour domestique than Majka, even though he is 500 years old?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Honestly, Narvaez is a better tour domestique than Majka, even though he is 500 years old?

You are underestimating Majka. He is a superb climber and very experienced

 

[Cycling111]

You are underestimating Majka. He is a superb climber and very experienced

It was an ironic question.
Given Adam's level and the doubts about Sivakov, I would've brought Majka before Narvaez.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It was an ironic question.
Given Adam's level and the doubts about Sivakov, I would've brought Majka before Narvaez.

Adam would be better than Majka. He will be good when it matters. Sivakov was sick in PN, so He will also improve until the Tour.