Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[snipeheem]

I'm a big MJ fan but this has always seemed like one of the dumbest stats people throw out to justify his superiority. Another way to say this stat is: 11 times Michael Jordan failed to make the Finals 11 times; or, he won the Championship 6/13 seasons. 6/6 is a dumb distortion of his record, IMO. That's like saying, Alberto Contador was on the podium 9 times and won all 9.

I agree but at the end of a day its between MJ and Bron. MJ never lose in finals while Bron did that 6 times.MJ never had a series like LBJ against Mavs in 2011.

 

[Gratemans]

On the topic of Pog being greedy: I feel he's completely in his right to win anything he can, like any pro-athlete. But you can't blame other teams either for becoming disgruntled at some point and do whatever they can to throw a spoke in the wheel. (Figuratively!)

On the other hand, a lot of the teams haven't really shown any interest in organising a serious break either. Yeah, I'm looking at you Intermarché, Arkea and Cofidis. What the hell are you even doing here?

 

[DoYouEvenRideBruh]

You are right but it's the same thing all over again. When will he win the Vuelta? Next year, Tour+WC+GdL is possible again. In 2027 the same. In 2028, he will race to win both the Tour and Olympics. Is he waiting for 2029 to win the Vuelta? Awful decision if he wants to win every GT

Funny to think there will be come a time, maybe sooner than expected, when old Pog will struggle to win a puny Vuelta. It's an obvious fact of life and sport, but it feels almost sacrilegious to entertain that thought now.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah, it's not about today. And for 2024, it was mostly about the final mountain stage on Couiolle where Pogacar said beforehand the breakaway could go but then they kept the gap somewhat close and he eventually won the stage.

So I fail to see where is Pogacar's fault...

 

[jmdirt]

I'm a big MJ fan but this has always seemed like one of the dumbest stats people throw out to justify his superiority. Another way to say this stat is: 11 times Michael Jordan failed to make the Finals 11 times; or, he won the Championship 6/13 seasons. 6/6 is a dumb distortion of his record, IMO. That's like saying, Alberto Contador was on the podium 9 times and won all 9.

Too off topic, but winning all six of the finals that they played in is a fact. Its not distorted because people who know that, also know that he played 15 seasons and therefore he didn't win the finals in every year that he played (and the years with the Wiz !).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Funny to think there will be come a time, maybe sooner than expected, when old Pog will struggle to win a puny Vuelta. It's an obvious fact of life and sport, but it feels almost sacrilegious to entertain that thought now.

Yes he is playing with fire. Winning Vuelta is a must for his palmares, specially when he is 3 or 4 years away from becoming the best GT rider ever.

 

[Salvarani]

I'm a big MJ fan but this has always seemed like one of the dumbest stats people throw out to justify his superiority. Another way to say this stat is: 11 times Michael Jordan failed to make the Finals 11 times; or, he won the Championship 6/13 seasons. 6/6 is a dumb distortion of his record, IMO. That's like saying, Alberto Contador was on the podium 9 times and won all 9.

I don’t think it is dumb at all…

It is difficult to have a team every year even getting to finals, no mind winning it.

The fact that when he and his team made it to finals, he didnt lose. It was much because of his mentality and skill that they managed that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I believe breakaway riders will steal a lot of points to Milan and if he tries to win 3 more stages, there is a chance he wins the green jersey.

https://cycling.today/can-tadej-pogacar-win-the-points-jersey-in-the-2025-tour-de-france/

 

[BubbaChuck]

point is ,he never lost finals.thats afeat,especially in nba due to nature of playoffs.is this main argument for goat,off course not.back to cycling.pogacar is like michael jordan chasing micheal jordan with wilt numbers from plumbers era,lmaoo.joking,nothing but respect for eddie.

 

[hayneplane]

I agree but at the end of a day its between MJ and Bron. MJ never lose in finals while Bron did that 6 times.MJ never had a series like LBJ against Mavs in 2011.

6/6 is not as good as getting there more than 6 times.

Hypothetically 7/10 would always be a better record than 6/6 unless you only ever played 6 seasons and thus truly had a perfect record.

 

[Peyroteo94]

point is ,he never lost finals.thats afeat,especially in nba due to nature of playoffs.is this main argument for goat,off course not.back to cycling.pogacar is like michael jordan chasing micheal jordan with wilt numbers from plumbers era,lmaoo.joking,nothing but respect for eddie.

I don't like to compare Pogacar with athletes who played team sports. His comparison is with Eddy Merckx, which is the most ridiculous thing ever since this era is way more specialized and he still can dominate wherever he wants.
For me if he wins PR, MSR,Vuelta and win 6 Tours he will surpass Merckx.
This probably means at the end of his career, a palmares with at least 8 GTs and 15 monuments.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Jonas did his best performance ever yesterday and still lost 36". It is hard to think this is not the best Pogacar we have ever seen and really think he didn't beat Riis's record due to a awful pace management on Hautacam. Narvaez burn everyone, including Pogacar (a lot less than other riders).

 

[Salvarani]

6/6 is not as good as getting there more than 6 times.

Hypothetically 7/10 would always be a better record than 6/6 unless you only ever played 6 seasons and thus truly had a perfect record.

Dont agree with that.

MJ > Lebron and it is not really a discussion. Not only because of finals, MJ was just different.

 

[Salvarani]

Jonas did his best performance ever yesterday and still lost 36". It is hard to think this is not the best Pogacar we have ever seen and really think he didn't beat Riis's record due to a awful pace management on Hautacam. Narvaez burn everyone, including Pogacar (a lot less than other riders).

 

[yaf2]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946298142535585887

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1946298142535585887?t=3_31MvUACLzwNPDSQXBtxA&s=19

Should we raise the question of pogs best performances have came in either v4 or v5rs bikes & not on y1🤔 had better watts at dauphine than yesterdays tt on a similar effort & length despite the dauphine one ridden after a hard day of visma attacking him on penultimate climb & yesterday was a fresh effort

 

[Red Rick]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946298142535585887

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1946298142535585887?t=3_31MvUACLzwNPDSQXBtxA&s=19

Should we raise the question of pogs best performances have came in either v4 or v5rs bikes & not on y1🤔 had better watts at dauphine than yesterdays tt on a similar effort & length despite the dauphine one ridden after a hard day of visma attacking him on penultimate climb & yesterday was a fresh effort

That's almost descending order in turns of chronology.

The decline is there for all to see.

 

[yaf2]

That's almost descending order in turns of chronology.

The decline is there for all to see.

There is a theory that certain riders aren't able to push the same watts on a tt bike as on road bikes maybe due to setup & am kind of curious to know why pogs performance on y1 aren't as mythical as v4 &v5. Since the start of the year in uae tour the y1 hasn't been as smooth. Maybe im over reading it

 

[Red Rick]

There is a theory that certain riders aren't able to push the same watts on a tt bike as on road bikes maybe due to setup & am kind of curious to know why pogs performance on y1 aren't as mythical as v4 &v5. Since the start of the year in uae tour the y1 hasn't been as smooth. Maybe im over reading it

I really don't care about the differences between road bikes because it all seems like marketing bs to me.

The caveat about these Watts2win estimates is that they're so standardized they introduce their own biases. The correction to the index based on the kJ or altitude during the stage for example is way too big for the best performers because the best riders in the race just aren't that tired usually. So it underestimates MTTs and overestimates super hard mountain stages. Secondly, it just standardizes everything and fails to capture drafting and wind conditions, and so it overestimates PdB and Isola 2000 on that regard.

Very likely Peyragudes and Combloux were simply his best performances, but the biases of the Watts2win algorithm index it down.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I have a time believing Combloux wasn't his best performance ever.

 

[snipeheem]

I have a time believing Combloux wasn't his best performance ever.

It has to be PdB

 

[Peyroteo94]

It has to be PdB

PdB was a mountain TTT. Combloux was Narvaez killing everyone in the first km and then Pogacar did a huge solo. Again the pace was from optimal.

 

[yaf2]

I really don't care about the differences between road bikes because it all seems like marketing bs to me.

The caveat about these Watts2win estimates is that they're so standardized they introduce their own biases. The correction to the index based on the kJ or altitude during the stage for example is way too big for the best performers because the best riders in the race just aren't that tired usually. So it underestimates MTTs and overestimates super hard mountain stages. Secondly, it just standardizes everything and fails to capture drafting and wind conditions, and so it overestimates PdB and Isola 2000 on that regard.

Very likely Peyragudes and Combloux were simply his best performances, but the biases of the Watts2win algorithm index it down.

They estimated less watts on plateau de beille & isola compared to other estimators like the visma boy. I think they're more reliable than most of them

 

[rafa92]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1946298142535585887

View: https://x.com/triviumcolombia/status/1946298142535585887?t=3_31MvUACLzwNPDSQXBtxA&s=19

Should we raise the question of pogs best performances have came in either v4 or v5rs bikes & not on y1🤔 had better watts at dauphine than yesterdays tt on a similar effort & length despite the dauphine one ridden after a hard day of visma attacking him on penultimate climb & yesterday was a fresh effort

I continue to believe that with the aero bike he performs worst on climbs, it's not only a matter of estimates of power output being lower, even than dauphine, but of how he looks on the bike. If you look at his performances with the v series he always arrives to the last kms in total control, he never looks like he's over his limit, he has his mouth closed, he looks comfortable on the bike. In this tour both in the tt and hautacam I did not have the same impression at all, plus his pedalling looks less smooth, especially as soon as the gradients go above 7.5-8%

 

[Fos]

PdB was a mountain TTT. Combloux was Narvaez killing everyone in the first km and then Pogacar did a huge solo. Again the pace was from optimal.

PdB had the best relays in history. Hautacam also went full throttle from the start, but 12km alone is a long way to go, and the crash the day before didn't help.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I continue to believe that with the aero bike he performs worst on climbs, it's not only a matter of estimates of power output being lower, even than dauphine, but of how he looks on the bike. If you look at his performances with the v series he always arrives to the last kms in total control, he never looks like he's over his limit, he has his mouth closed, he looks comfortable on the bike. In this tour both in the tt and hautacam I did not have the same impression at all, plus his pedalling looks less smooth, especially as soon as the gradients go above 7.5-8%

He went to the red to follow Narvaez on Hautacam, I can't imagine where was Vingegaard.