Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peyroteo94]

Yeah very true.

Look at the 4 main dominating teams in the last 20 years:

Ineos - Won the TDF with 4 different riders (Wiggins/Froome/Thomas/Bernal) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Poels/Kwiatkowski)

Jumbo Visma - Won Grand Tours with 4 different riders (Roglic/Vingegaard/Kuss/S.Yates) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Roglic/Van Aert)

Quickstep - Won Monuments with 5 different riders (Boonen/Devolder/Terpstra/Boonen/Alaphilippe/Evenepoel)

UAE - Only Pogacar has won either a monument or grand tour with them.

You forgot Van Baarle

 

[hayneplane]

You forgot Van Baarle

Yes. Even more evidence that Pogacar papers over the relative ineptitude of team management.

 

[Cycling111]

Yeah very true.

Look at the 4 main dominating teams in the last 20 years:

Ineos - Won the TDF with 4 different riders (Wiggins/Froome/Thomas/Bernal) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Poels/Kwiatkowski)

Jumbo Visma - Won Grand Tours with 4 different riders (Roglic/Vingegaard/Kuss/S.Yates) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Roglic/Van Aert)

Quickstep - Won Monuments with 5 different riders (Boonen/Devolder/Terpstra/Boonen/Alaphilippe/Evenepoel)

UAE - Only Pogacar has won either a monument or grand tour with them.

Jumbo has won in the northern classics with Jorgenson, Laporte, and Tratnik. UAE hasn't done it with anyone. Truly, Tratnik is a better rider for those classics than all the UAE signings in recent years?

 

[Peyroteo94]

Yes. Even more evidence that Pogacar papers over the relative ineptitude of team management.

UAE is worldbeater because of Pogacar. Without him, people would laugh at them

 

[Cycling111]

UAE is worldbeater because of Pogacar. Without him, people would laugh at them

They've been a laughingstock on social media today.Everyone's making memes and laughing at the team's lack of management. What else is needed for them to realize this and take action? In a serious team, they'd kick Ayuso out of the Vuelta tomorrow. They don't care. They'd put up with anything to beat HTC record. They'd still beat that stupid record without Ayuso. Vine would have won his second stage the other day.

 

[Squire]

Yeah very true.

Look at the 4 main dominating teams in the last 20 years:

Ineos - Won the TDF with 4 different riders (Wiggins/Froome/Thomas/Bernal) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Poels/Kwiatkowski)

Jumbo Visma - Won Grand Tours with 4 different riders (Roglic/Vingegaard/Kuss/S.Yates) and Monuments with 2 different riders (Roglic/Van Aert)

Quickstep - Won Monuments with 5 different riders (Boonen/Devolder/Terpstra/Boonen/Alaphilippe/Evenepoel)

UAE - Only Pogacar has won either a monument or grand tour with them.

While I agree with your point, this is quite the selective choice of results. I don't know if your goal was to list all victories in the last 20 years or just do 'recent times', but if Devolder is in there, it's at least back to 2009. And quite a few from recent years are also missing.

If we are to actually take the last 20 years, add Asgreen, Jungels, Gilbert, Pozzato and Bettini for Quick-Step. Geoghegan Hart and Van Baarle for Ineos. And we should also follow the lineage of the other teams, so add Freire and Menchov for Visma and Ballan and Cunego for UAE.

Your point still stands of course. Especially considering the last big win for UAE/Lampre before Pog was right at the start of the time period in question.

 

[Rou]

Segments rankings, famous cycling climbs, comparison of the best times - Watts2Win

The ultimate database of cycling performance

www.watts2win.eu

Vingegaard on Valdezcaray:
25:52 - 6.89 W/KG Index: 98
Like I said before - Pogacar did a wise move by skipping La Vuelta.

 

[Oldman]

Roglic will be cooked after 4 hours ff racing

So yes or no.

 

[Cycling111]

How right this tweet is. We saw it in yesterday's stage thread. Domination is no longer boring. And it's even said that Vingeggaard won through cunning, not to mention strength and dominance. Those who cry the most are the happiest to see another dominance.
The same thing happened when Remco won two Liège races by crushing victory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1962269637975966076

View: https://x.com/Vaalent1/status/1962269637975966076?t=Pg-tqGZGkaqgbr4sZVfQOQ&s=19

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Segments rankings, famous cycling climbs, comparison of the best times - Watts2Win

The ultimate database of cycling performance

www.watts2win.eu

Vingegaard on Valdezcaray:
25:52 - 6.89 W/KG Index: 98
Like I said before - Pogacar did a wise move by skipping La Vuelta.

Great performance by Vingegaard (with tailwind though) but also very good by Almeida. I'm surprised that Pidcock managed to hang on (shallow gradients helped him).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Segments rankings, famous cycling climbs, comparison of the best times - Watts2Win

The ultimate database of cycling performance

www.watts2win.eu

Vingegaard on Valdezcaray:
25:52 - 6.89 W/KG Index: 98
Like I said before - Pogacar did a wise move by skipping La Vuelta.

Oh please. In any world is Pogacar losing time yesterday. Specially when Almeida is losing 24 seconds.
I wouldn't read too much on those numbers, specially with such irregular climb.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Vuelta is the GT where numbers are higher because a lot of stages are unipuerto stages.

 

[Rou]

Vuelta is the GT where numbers are higher because a lot of stages are unipuerto stages.

Wrong. Let's not invent things now. Remove Vingegaard from the race and the numbers will be lower.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Wrong. Let's not invent things now. Remove Vingegaard from the race and the numbers will be lower.

I'm not inventing. It's easier to make high numbers on unipuerto stages (and specially on steeper climbs). This is common sense Rou.

 

[Rou]

Oh please. In any world is Pogacar losing time yesterday. Specially when Almeida is losing 24 seconds.
I wouldn't read too much on those numbers, specially with such irregular climb.

Now I will tell you why I think Pogacar would have been in serious problems if he came to Spain.
1) He finished the Tour exhausted (mentally and physically). At the end of the race Vingegaard was very close to him.
2) For the past years August is always the weakest month of Pogacar. It is because the TDF drains him too much.
3) Even if came to the Vuelta and won it the fight with Jonas would have been much tougher than in the Tour (I am 100 % sure of that). This also means that Tadej would have missed Rwanda after that.
4) Also very important. Visma is a much better team than UAE. Nobody can debate that.
Competition makes races. Not parcour. A TDF-Vuelta double against Vingegaard is the hardest task for Pogacar.

 

[Rou]

I'm not inventing. It's easier to make high numbers on unipuerto stages (and specially on steeper climbs). This is common sense Rou.

What's your point? You said Pogacar will win the Vuelta with one leg against Jonas, correct? I disagree with that and gave you multiple reasons.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Now I will tell you why I think Pogacar would have been in serious problems if he came to Spain.
1) He finished the Tour exhausted (mentally and physically). At the end of the race Vingegaard was very close to him.
2) For the past years August is always the weakest month of Pogacar. It is because the TDF drains him too much.
3) Even if came to the Vuelta and won it the fight with Jonas would have been much tougher than in the Tour (I am 100 % sure of that). This also means that Tadej would have missed Rwanda after that.
4) Also very important. Visma is a much better team than UAE. Nobody can debate that.
Competition makes races. Not parcour. A TDF-Vuelta double against Vingegaard is the hardest task for Pogacar.

I think the main point is Vingegaard doesn't care about WCRR and Pogacar highly values the WCRR. He really wants to be world champion again. If you look to the route, there is no way Vingegaard beats Pogacar.

 

[Cycling111]

Oh please. In any world is Pogacar losing time yesterday. Specially when Almeida is losing 24 seconds.
I wouldn't read too much on those numbers, specially with such irregular climb.

I was thinking the same thing. Someone thinks Pogacar wouldn't win with more difference againts Almeida and Picock?
After a crash and being covered in blood, he put more difference with Pidcock at Strade Bianche, the road race that best suits Pidcock

The reality is that Vingegaard has been unable to win a stage againts Pogacar in two years. While Pogacar, in his worst Tour, won two stages against Vingegaard and surpassed him in several times in spring.
I've read comments on X putting them on the same level again and trying to scare Pogacar. If he wants to scare Pogacar, he should go to the World Championships, and we'll see how the same thing happens as in the Tour.

 

[Rou]

I think the main point is Vingegaard doesn't care about WCRR and Pogacar highly values the WCRR. He really wants to be world champion again. If you look to the route, there is no way Vingegaard beats Pogacar.

I agree that Pogacar values the World's title more. This is why I think that Pogacar maybe will do the Vuelta in 2028 when World's will be in Abu Dhabi.
About the route like I said the competition matters, mate.
Who expected Vingegaard to destroy Ciccone and put him on 1:46 min on a 5 % climb?

 

[Rou]

I was thinking the same thing. Someone thinks Pogacar wouldn't win with more difference againts Almeida and Picock?
After a crash and being covered in blood, he put more difference with Pidcock at Strade Bianche, the road race that best suits Pidcock

The reality is that Vingegaard has been unable to win a stage againts Pogacar in two years. While Pogacar, in his worst Tour, won two stages against Vingegaard and surpassed him in several times in spring.
I've read comments on X putting them on the same level again and trying to scare Pogacar. If he wants to scare Pogacar, he should go to the World Championships, and we'll see how the same thing happens as in the Tour.

Take peak Pogacar and he smokes peak Vingegaard.
My point is that you will not get peak Pogacar in the Vuelta after a hard Tour.
Until proven otherwise Vingegaard has the bigger engine to do back to back Grand Tours.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I agree that Pogacar values the World's title more. This is why I think that Pogacar maybe will do the Vuelta in 2028 when World's will be in Abu Dhabi.
About the route like I said the competition matters, mate.
Who expected Vingegaard to destroy Ciccone and put him on 1:46 min on a 5 % climb?

Ciccone is not a reliable GT rider. You have Almeida to compare. C'mon. He gained 24 seconds in almost a TT against Almeida. Are you suggesting he would drop Pogacar on this climb?

 

[Rou]

Ciccone is not a reliable GT rider. You have Almeida to compare. C'mon. He gained 24 seconds in almost a TT against Almeida. Are you suggesting he would drop Pogacar on this climb?

No, of course he won't drop him. My point is that Rabobank would make this race Hell for Pogi. He may still win it but would finish on his knees in Madrid.
By the way Almeida is in the best shape of his career and would have destroyed Lipowitz in the Tour for 3rd. A shame that he has a teammate like Ayuso but this is a different topic.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, of course he won't drop him. My point is that Rabobank would make this race Hell for Pogi. He may still win it but would finish on his knees in Madrid.
By the way Almeida is in the best shape of his career and would have destroyed Lipowitz in the Tour for 3rd. A shame that he has a teammate like Ayuso but this is a different topic.

I don't know about this. Next year, I believe we will see Lipo vs João in the Giro.

 

[Cycling111]

Ciccone is not a reliable GT rider. You have Almeida to compare. C'mon. He gained 24 seconds in almost a TT against Almeida. Are you suggesting he would drop Pogacar on this climb?

I already predicted Ciccone's situation, it was easy. He has a total of zero top-10 finishes in GT , which is terrifying data.
The same results as Kuss before winning in 2023, and Kuss's performance is completely exceptional.
Ciccone finishing third in this Vuelta would already be a huge step forward considering his dismal GT results.

 

[hayneplane]

While I agree with your point, this is quite the selective choice of results. I don't know if your goal was to list all victories in the last 20 years or just do 'recent times', but if Devolder is in there, it's at least back to 2009. And quite a few from recent years are also missing.

If we are to actually take the last 20 years, add Asgreen, Jungels, Gilbert, Pozzato and Bettini for Quick-Step. Geoghegan Hart and Van Baarle for Ineos. And we should also follow the lineage of the other teams, so add Freire and Menchov for Visma and Ballan and Cunego for UAE.

Your point still stands of course. Especially considering the last big win for UAE/Lampre before Pog was right at the start of the time period in question.

You are right that I missed a few eg Gilbert and Asgreen (thought both and forgot to type it!), Van Baarle, TGH, Jungels.

The others I would not count because they were not part of what I would have termed the glory years of each team under a similar management set up and structure and relatively continuous dominance in their respective areas.