Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[hayneplane]

He said his legs are really good so I think we will see another Poggenheimer on Sunday. Last week he finished much fresher than in Zurich, I don't know if he went all out and this is the scary thing.

Looking at the consistency of the lap times and how relatively fresh he looked at the end you hear ex pros say he looked like he could have done another 2-3 laps at the same pace whilst everyone else was already sliding further behind with every pedal stroke.

If it was the last race of the season with no need to hold back any reserves of energy then the gaps would have been like Lombardia 24.

 

[Cycling111]

Looking at the consistency of the lap times and how relatively fresh he looked at the end you hear ex pros say he looked like he could have done another 2-3 laps at the same pace whilst everyone else was already sliding further behind with every pedal stroke.

If it was the last race of the season with no need to hold back any reserves of energy then the gaps would have been like Lombardia 24.

If the Tour had the old routes, with mountain stages of 250km or more, Pogacar would be win TDF easier.

 

[Peyroteo94]

If that were the case, there would be more riders of McNulty's level in Croatia...

Tell me a good race happening right now (between WC and GdL).?

 

[James M]

I really wish they didn't care about the stupid win record so much. It's kind of embarrassing watching Brandon McNulty stomp all over everyone at the CRO race.

UAE by far have the best riders in the world. Their depth is ridiculous and no contest, to the point unfair yes and its all down to money yes, But they have to send them somewhere. If its not McNulty, someone else would be the favorite. If in sport competing and writing history isn’t the goal, then I don’t know what is.

And no team even comes close to winning as many big races as UAE does not even prime Sky with all their TDF wins, which will be surpassed soon too. And yes, of course, Pogacar takes care of those big wins, goes without saying. But still, these are just facts. No team wins as many big races as UAE or small races as UAE,

And when Pog is naturally captain in big races other needs to be able to race some races too or they shouldn’t enter? Seems kinda silly to me when they are typing history, the CRO race in itself is not big deal but the overall picture is.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Looking at the consistency of the lap times and how relatively fresh he looked at the end you hear ex pros say he looked like he could have done another 2-3 laps at the same pace whilst everyone else was already sliding further behind with every pedal stroke.

If it was the last race of the season with no need to hold back any reserves of energy then the gaps would have been like Lombardia 24.

I have the same impression. Remco closed 4 or 5 seconds with this attack but he lost 20 seconds in the last 2 laps.
The difference between Pogi and the rest was bigger than what the results show. He just smokes a "fresh" peloton almost alone when he rides for Slovenia.

 

[Peyroteo94]

UAE by far have the best riders in the world. Their depth is ridiculous and no contest, to the point unfair yes and its all down to money yes, But they have to send them somewhere. If its not McNulty, someone else would be the favorite. If competing and writing history isn’t the goal, then I don’t know what is. This is sport, its competitive, and it’s about winning. Nothing else.

And no team even comes close to winning as many big races as UAE does not even prime Sky with all their TDF wins, which will be surpassed soon too. And yes, of course, Pogacar takes care of those big wins, goes without saying. But still, these are just facts. No team wins as many big races as UAE or small races as UAE,

And when Pog is naturally captain in big races other needs to be able to race some races too or they shouldn’t enter? Seems kinda silly to me when they are typing history, the CRO race in itself is not big deal but the overall picture is.

But until now, they didn't show the strenght, intelligence (whatever it takes) to win a big race without Pogacar.
And this is what annoys me the most in UAE, they want to give everyone a chance to lead but for example, I think Pogacar should have tried to win all 3 GTs last year but somehow feel Almeida and Yates wanted to lead the Vuelta. Of course they failed big time.

 

[Cycling111]

But until now, they didn't show the strenght, intelligence (whatever it takes) to win a big race without Pogacar.
And this is what annoys me the most in UAE, they want to give everyone a chance to lead but for example, I think Pogacar should have tried to win all 3 GTs last year but somehow feel Almeida and Yates wanted to lead the Vuelta. Of course they failed big time.

For me, as a team, what Visma did in 2023 is far superior to this UAE season.

The UAE signed Almeida and Ayuso to win GTs. The two GTs they haven't won this year are far superior to the rest of the races they've won. Only Pogacar has achieved more important victories than Simon Yates victory .

It's a failure to have the most expensive team, the one with the most signings, and Simon Yates being the river who wins something more important than the rest of the UAE stars.

 

[Cycling111]

Del Toro must feel lucky. He has Adam Yates and Vine working for the Giro d'Emilia. I remember Pogacar completely alone in the Tour de France surrounded by Lotto Jumbo riders in 2020.
In the 2019 Vuelta also rode alone, as in most races.

If Pogacar had had these teams, I don't want to think about what he would have won, if he was already capable of winning everything he won on his own.

 

[James M]

But until now, they didn't show the strenght, intelligence (whatever it takes) to win a big race without Pogacar.
And this is what annoys me the most in UAE, they want to give everyone a chance to lead but for example, I think Pogacar should have tried to win all 3 GTs last year but somehow feel Almeida and Yates wanted to lead the Vuelta. Of course they failed big time.

I agree theyre not the smartest at all, they just have money nothing else but its neverthess a cheat code in modern cycling.They just have by far the most watts and brute force but it only goes that far in big races and applies to all teams honestly, without the strongest rider in said race its hard to win big races unless your just lucky, you can have the best team and still not win, Pogacar 2020 is prime example of that where Visma rider by rider was laughable strong but Pogacar himself was strongest. Or take Lidl now for instance super classic team now but their leader isnt MvdP so results isnt the same.

I agree, I wanted him too. But we don’t know if thats because Pogacar himself said no. You feel me? I think he did, and wanted the WC and was naturally tired and so on. At the end of the day, that’s just fans speculating, we dont know that.

Also while i agree think about this, for future implications, it’s hard to know what kind of toll it would take on him at that age, and how it might affect his development with three consecutive GT. Objectively, it’s a tough call imo without knowing how fresh he was and numbers etc. Easier down the line when hes older to make that call if you ask me anyway, less to loose.

 

[James M]

I don’t care much for teams in cycling personally it’s more about individual riders for me, especially compared to other sports.

But what’s kinda interesting to me is the growing emphasis on key staff, especially nutritionists, in modern cycling. It’s almost F1-esque with engineers these days. Its wild how the sport has been revolutionized by the new approach to nutrition. These specialists have become incredibly sought-after, and theres a huge tug-of-war behind the scenes with em, with top teams competing and throwing ridiculous amounts of money at them, mad money.

 

[hayneplane]

I agree theyre not the smartest at all, they just have money nothing else but its neverthess a cheat code in modern cycling.They just have by far the most watts and brute force but it only goes that far in big races and applies to all teams honestly, without the strongest rider in said race its hard to win big races unless your just lucky, you can have the best team and still not win, Pogacar 2020 is prime example of that where Visma rider by rider was laughable strong but Pogacar himself was strongest. Or take Lidl now for instance super classic team now but their leader isnt MvdP so results isnt the same.

I agree, I wanted him too. But we don’t know if thats because Pogacar himself said no. You feel me? I think he did, and wanted the WC and was naturally tired and so on. At the end of the day, that’s just fans speculating, we dont know that.

Also while i agree think about this, for future implications, it’s hard to know what kind of toll it would take on him at that age, and how it might affect his development with three consecutive GT. Objectively, it’s a tough call imo without knowing how fresh he was and numbers etc. Easier down the line when hes older to make that call if you ask me anyway, less to loose.

We might not get the honest answer to this until after he has retired and it’s talked about in an autobiography.

 

[James M]

We might not get the honest answer to this until after he has retired and it’s talked about in an autobiography.

True, it’s hard to know actually one of the things i would like to know. Personally, I would’ve loved to see him take on the Vuelta last year I think he would’ve won it easily. But I can also see the other side of it. He was 25 at that point, right? And doing three consecutive GTS could impact his future development. Then again, maybe it wouldn’t it’s hard to say. But with everything at stake for him, its definitely an intriguing question indeed, hope he does.

 

[James M]

Looking at the consistency of the lap times and how relatively fresh he looked at the end you hear ex pros say he looked like he could have done another 2-3 laps at the same pace whilst everyone else was already sliding further behind with every pedal stroke.

If it was the last race of the season with no need to hold back any reserves of energy then the gaps would have been like Lombardia 24.

Agree. Also there wasnt any group 2 syndrome this year behind making this even more impressive to me.

Kigali was mostly mindblowingt to me in the essence of this what you say, to me incredible hard to gauge just how superior he actually is for these reasons you mentioned, it somewhat continues to blow my mind.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don’t care much for teams in cycling personally it’s more about individual riders for me, especially compared to other sports.

But what’s kinda interesting to me is the growing emphasis on key staff, especially nutritionists, in modern cycling. It’s almost F1-esque with engineers these days. Its wild how the sport has been revolutionized by the new approach to nutrition. These specialists have become incredibly sought-after, and theres a huge tug-of-war behind the scenes with em, with top teams competing and throwing ridiculous amounts of money at them, mad money.

I share with the same view but UAE has a lot of portuguese riders + 2 of my favorite riders (Pog and Del Toro). So most of the time, I'm cheering for them.

 

[Peyroteo94]

True, it’s hard to know actually one of the things i would like to know. Personally, I would’ve loved to see him take on the Vuelta last year I think he would’ve won it easily. But I can also see the other side of it. He was 25 at that point, right? And doing three consecutive GTS could impact his future development. Then again, maybe it wouldn’t it’s hard to say. But with everything at stake for him, its definitely an intriguing question indeed, hope he does.

I wanted to witness history even if Pogacar fell off a cliff.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Danmarck will wait for Teddy to attack. I can't believe they are so stupid.

"Tadej Pogacar has to be worn down somehow" – Former Worlds runner-up sees opportunity for Jonas Vingegaard in European Championship road race

As the elite men’s European Championship road race looms this Sunday, all eyes inevitably turn to Tadej Pogacar — the reigning world champion and overwhelming favourite to add continental gold to his...

cyclinguptodate.com

 

[Shortcut]

You all putting Del Toro in the same boat as Almeida? I like Del Toro too but he still hasn't WIN anything really important. 3GTs+5 monuments+WC+ 7 big one week stage races+ Strade, Amstel, FW. Those are 19 biggest races, after that probably UAE tour and Montreal/Quebec. His biggest win is probably this Emilia or Milano-Torino.

 

[Cycling111]

You all putting Del Toro in the same boat as Almeida? I like Del Toro too but he still hasn't WIN anything really important. 3GTs+5 monuments+WC+ 7 big one week stage races+ Strade, Amstel, FW. Those are 19 biggest races, after that probably UAE tour and Montreal/Quebec. His biggest win is probably this Emilia or Milano-Torino.

In GT, Almeida still seems superior.
Del Toro was beaten by Carapaz on the toughest stage before Finestre, and in Finestre by Simon Yates.
Good riders, but far from his best years.

For now, I see him as similar to Ayuso. His victories are in similar races. They're good cyclists in classics under 200 kilometers. They've had a podium in GT, but he raises doubts in the two tough mountain stages. Like Ayuso, who reminds me of Valverde, a great puncher, but whose weakness was the mountains in GTs, which is why Valverde only won the Vuelta.
He was good in the Monuments, but back then they were more sprint; now they're run differently.
We'll see if Del Toro and Ayuso can become more endurance riders than Valverde.

Almeida is very different. He has less wins because he's slower, but he's better in high mountains and more consistent for a GT.

 

[Peyroteo94]

You all putting Del Toro in the same boat as Almeida? I like Del Toro too but he still hasn't WIN anything really important. 3GTs+5 monuments+WC+ 7 big one week stage races+ Strade, Amstel, FW. Those are 19 biggest races, after that probably UAE tour and Montreal/Quebec. His biggest win is probably this Emilia or Milano-Torino.

He is 21 and made a huge leap this year. I expect another leap next year (not as big though).

 

[Cycling111]

He is 21 and made a huge leap this year. I expect another leap next year (not as big though).

He is the same age as Pogacar and is in the same season as Pogacar (second) when he won his first tour.
But you never know, Vingegaard wasn't promising and look now.

When a young rider progresses, the following year it's difficult to do so, because it also usually means having to complete a higher-level calendar throughout the year, and it's harder for him to maintain his shape in a higher level races at the end of the year if he goes to the Tour as a domestique than if he does the races he did this year before the World Championships.

I suppose he'll take Ayuso's entire calendar. He reminds me a lot of him, and Ayuso stagnated, although he has continued to win one-week races and some classics because his level was already quite high.

I don't think Del Toro is fit to win a GT next year. In fact, if they take him to the Tour, I don't think they'll take him to the Giro. It's more likely he'll do the Vuelta afterward. He doesn't have the experience of Adam Yates or Almeida. They won't take him to the Tour dubbing; the Tour is the most important thing for the UAE. If he goes to the Giro, then it will be because they won't take him to the Tour.
Besides, Vingegaard will be at the Giro. They know they can't beat him with another rider, and they're not going to jeopardize the Tour by taking their two best climbers to the Giro.

 

[hayneplane]

He is the same age as Pogacar and is in the same season as Pogacar (second) when he won his first tour.
But you never know, Vingegaard wasn't promising and look now.

When a young rider progresses, the following year it's difficult to do so, because it also usually means having to complete a higher-level calendar throughout the year, and it's harder for him to maintain his shape in a higher level races at the end of the year if he goes to the Tour as a domestique than if he does the races he did this year before the World Championships.

I suppose he'll take Ayuso's entire calendar. He reminds me a lot of him, and Ayuso stagnated, although he has continued to win one-week races and some classics because his level was already quite high.

I don't think Del Toro is fit to win a GT next year. In fact, if they take him to the Tour, I don't think they'll take him to the Giro. It's more likely he'll do the Vuelta afterward. He doesn't have the experience of Adam Yates or Almeida. They won't take him to the Tour dubbing; the Tour is the most important thing for the UAE. If he goes to the Giro, then it will be because they won't take him to the Tour.
Besides, Vingegaard will be at the Giro. They know they can't beat him with another rider, and they're not going to jeopardize the Tour by taking their two best climbers to the Giro.

Pogacar will likely go heavy on the classics and skip the one week world tour stage races in Spring.

Likely he gets to do Strade Bianchi (w/wo Pog), TA, Catalunya or Basque Country then Ardennes. All as either co-leader or outright leader.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He is the same age as Pogacar and is in the same season as Pogacar (second) when he won his first tour.
But you never know, Vingegaard wasn't promising and look now.

When a young rider progresses, the following year it's difficult to do so, because it also usually means having to complete a higher-level calendar throughout the year, and it's harder for him to maintain his shape in a higher level races at the end of the year if he goes to the Tour as a domestique than if he does the races he did this year before the World Championships.

I suppose he'll take Ayuso's entire calendar. He reminds me a lot of him, and Ayuso stagnated, although he has continued to win one-week races and some classics because his level was already quite high.

I don't think Del Toro is fit to win a GT next year. In fact, if they take him to the Tour, I don't think they'll take him to the Giro. It's more likely he'll do the Vuelta afterward. He doesn't have the experience of Adam Yates or Almeida. They won't take him to the Tour dubbing; the Tour is the most important thing for the UAE. If he goes to the Giro, then it will be because they won't take him to the Tour.
Besides, Vingegaard will be at the Giro. They know they can't beat him with another rider, and they're not going to jeopardize the Tour by taking their two best climbers to the Giro.

For me, he will be the third best GT rider next year and could very well win the Vuelta if Vingegaard is not there.

 

[Cycling111]

For me, he will be the third best GT rider next year and could very well win the Vuelta if Vingegaard is not there.

I don't know. The same was thought about Ayuso, and the opposite of Vingegaard.

In GT, it's very difficult to go from being a contender to winning, and even after winning, it's difficult to maintain and take the next step in the Tour. Hindley, for example. After Marmolada, some saw Hindley as a version of Roglic for the Giro, and at that level, he was a sure bet for a Tour podium.

Del Toro in the Giro left the same doubts as Ayuso and the same ones Valverde did in GT. And his victories in other races are very similar. Riders with a lot of punch, and they suffer at high mileage (Ayuso and Del Toro)
Lipowitz is less of a winner, but he's a rider whose endurance hasn't raised any questions in the toughest stages of the Tour, although outside of GT, he'll win less.

I see him as so similar to Ayuso and Valverde that until I see him take another step in GT, it'll be normal to have that doubt. And in the Tour, the tough stages aren't raced at the pace of current Simon Yates and Carapaz.

I see Del Toro as an ideal rider for the Vuelta, like Ayuso and Valverde.