Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Krzysztof_O]

Vingegaard will start his decline soon. Del Toro is improving massively. 2 years and the table can turn.

I perceive Del Toro more as a one-day racing thread (he still has to improve his endurance though). I'm not convinced about his GT greatness yet (it could end up similarly to Ayuso).

 

[Peyroteo94]

I perceive Del Toro more as a one-day racing thread (he still has to improve his endurance though). I'm not convinced about his GT greatness yet (it could end up similarly to Ayuso).

Ayuso never did something remotely close to what Del Toro did in the Giro. He was the best rider in the Giro and lost due to a tactical mistake.
I don't believe for a second he (or Carapaz) was weaker than Yates in Finestre.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Ayuso never did something remotely close to what Del Toro did in the Giro. He was the best rider in the Giro and lost due to a tactical mistake.
I don't believe for a second he (or Carapaz) was weaker than Yates in Finestre.

They definitely were weaker than Yates. Their main mistake was pacing though: a crazy start of the climb while Yates was operating closer to his FTP most of the time.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They definitely were weaker than Yates. Their main mistake was pacing though: a crazy start of the climb while Yates was operating closer to his FTP most of the time.

They were racing against each other and Yates got a green light. If they both raced in a strady pace until the top of Finestre, Yates wouldn't gain any time.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They were racing against each other and Yates got a green light. If they both raced in a strady pace until the top of Finestre, Yates wouldn't gain any time.

Nah, they were too cooked. They even cooperated for some time but the gap was going only in one direction. They could've made is smaller, that's it (but not zero).

 

[Peyroteo94]

Nah, they were too cooked. They even cooperated for some time but the gap was going only in one direction.

They were cooked because they didn't go in a steady pace. They were either sprinting or recovering.

 

[Cycling111]

Vingegaard will start his decline soon. Del Toro is improving massively. 2 years and the table can turn.

You were talking about the Giro 2026.

Almeida was also supposed to be on par with Vingegaard, but he wasn't, despite not suffering from the Tour's fatigue. At the Tour, Almeida would have been closer to fourth place than Vingegaard. Del Toro was the same. There's a big difference between Carapaz, Simon Yates and Vingegaard. And a big difference between Giro and Tour.

 

[AmRacer]

You were talking about the Giro 2026.

Almeida was also supposed to be on par with Vingegaard, but he wasn't, despite not suffering from the Tour's fatigue. At the Tour, Almeida would have been closer to fourth place than Vingegaard. Del Toro was the same. There's a big difference between Carapaz, Simon Yates and Vingegaard. And a big difference between Giro and Tour.

Don't know how much Almeida's injury hampered his Vuelta build up.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

They were cooked because they didn't go in a steady pace. They were either sprinting or recovering.

Their main mistake was made at the bottom of the climb (crazy attack by Carapaz and Del Toro following it). As @Red Rick says Yates is a flat uphill track FTP bully: he had a more steady start and produced a great performance on this climb.

 

[Cycling111]

Ayuso never did something remotely close to what Del Toro did in the Giro. He was the best rider in the Giro and lost due to a tactical mistake.
I don't believe for a second he (or Carapaz) was weaker than Yates in Finestre.

It wasn't just a tactical error. Carapaz was already far superior to Del Toro on the toughest mountain stage.
Furthermore, Carapaz and Simon are two declining riders. Ayuso was fourth being better riders like Roglic and Vingeggard and has stagnated in GT.

Hindley crushed Carapaz in Marmolada.

GT ability must be demonstrated. It's hard to get there and it's hard to mantain there.

They remind me of Valverde. Valverde won a Vuelta and was on the podium at the Tour one year, but in general, he was a rider who struggled on the toughest mountain days. Ayuso and Del Toro are similars.

Saying he'll make Vingegaard suffer is what they said about Almeida before the Tour. And it's now clear that wouldn't have been the case

 

[Salvarani]

Don't know how much Almeida's injury hampered his Vuelta build up.

He cracked a couple of his ribs, who notoriously does not heal fast. So it was likely a week or so off the bike, but ribs are very tricky and can feel uncomfortable for months. Only Joao can speak to how much it has bothered him, but it probably wouldnt be wise to reveal that during the Vuelta or until the season is over.

He is racing so it has to be at least manageable.

How much it may have hampered is difficult to say. Something that is hard to measure or know for sure. Even for Joao.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Their main mistake was made at the bottom of the climb (crazy attack by Carapaz and Del Toro following it). As @Red Rick says Yates is a flat uphill track FTP bully: he had a more steady start and produced a great performance on this climb.

He still got dropped like a stone in stage 16. A true mountain stage.
I can't agree with you on this one. I'm pretty sure Carapaz (for example) was as strong as Yates.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He cracked a couple of his ribs, who notoriously does not heal fast. So it was likely a week or so off the bike, but ribs are very tricky and can feel uncomfortable for months. Only Joao can speak to how much it has bothered him, but it probably wouldnt be wise to reveal that during the Vuelta or until the season is over.

He is racing so it has to be at least manageable.

How much it may have hampered is difficult to say. Something that is hard to measure or know for sure. Even for Joao.

He said he had 2 and half weeks of work without troubles.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It wasn't just a tactical error. Carapaz was already far superior to Del Toro on the toughest mountain stage.
Furthermore, Carapaz and Simon are two declining riders. Ayuso was fourth being better riders like Roglic and Vingeggard and has stagnated in GT.

Hindley crushed Carapaz in Marmolada.

GT ability must be demonstrated. It's hard to get there and it's hard to mantain there.

They remind me of Valverde. Valverde won a Vuelta and was on the podium at the Tour one year, but in general, he was a rider who struggled on the toughest mountain days. Ayuso and Del Toro are similars.

Saying he'll make Vingegaard suffer is what they said about Almeida before the Tour. And it's now clear that wouldn't have been the case

Del Toro is 21 and it's obvious he is improving quickly. Even this Del Toro is not the same we saw in March. He reached a new level after doing the Giro.

 

[Cycling111]

Don't know how much Almeida's injury hampered his Vuelta build up.

We Know what the fatigue of the Tour did to their legs. Ask Pogacar about the final stage of the Tour de France....

Almeida started training with plenty of time for the Vuelta. If he wasn't at Vingegaard's level in the Vuelta, he was even less so in the Tour.

 

[Cycling111]

Del Toro is 21 and it's obvious he is improving quickly. Even this Del Toro is not the same we saw in March. He reached a new level after doing the Giro.

No one denies this. But you're taking it to another level by saying he'll be a problem for Vingegaard in the Giro. I'm just saying that facing Carapaz and Simon Yates in a GT is infinitely easier.

The reality is that Hindley performed better against a better Carapaz and he has never been close to Vingegaard in GT.

He'll have to prove that. There are similar examples to Hindley in the Giro and Vuelta.

After what happened with Almeida, I'm surprised you still hold that idea.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No one denies this. But you're taking it to another level by saying he'll be a problem for Vingegaard in the Giro. I'm just saying that facing Carapaz and Simon Yates in a GT is infinitely easier.

The reality is that Hindley performed better against a better Carapaz and he has never been close to Vingegaard in GT.

He'll have to prove that. There are similar examples to Hindley in the Giro and Vuelta.

After what happened with Almeida, I'm surprised you still hold that idea.

I said in 2 years. For 2026, we don't even know which GT he will race. For me no one can beat a peak Vingegaard in a GT unless your name is Pogacar.

 

[AmRacer]

We Know what the fatigue of the Tour did to their legs. Ask Pogacar about the final stage of the Tour de France....

Almeida started training with plenty of time for the Vuelta. If he wasn't at Vingegaard's level in the Vuelta, he was even less so in the Tour.

Jonas didn't seem to have any issues Vuelta 2023. I'm not saying Almeida would've won the Vuelta, but I think he was doing better before his TdF crash.

 

[Cycling111]

They definitely were weaker than Yates. Their main mistake was pacing though: a crazy start of the climb while Yates was operating closer to his FTP most of the time.

Agree.
It wasn't just a tactical error. This happened on the toughest day before Finestre.
Carapaz and Simon Yates stronger.

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 results

Giro d'Italia 2025 Stage 16 from Piazzola sul Brenta to San Valentino (Brentonico) was won by Christian Scaroni before Lorenzo Fortunato and Giulio Pellizzari. Isaac del Toro was leading the general classification.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Peyroteo94]

Jonas didn't seem to have any issues Vuelta 2023. I'm not saying Almeida would've won the Vuelta, but I think he was doing better before his TdF crash.

But we can't compare Vingegaard with Almeida.

 

[Cycling111]

Jonas didn't seem to have any issues Vuelta 2023. I'm not saying Almeida would've won the Vuelta, but I think he was doing better before his TdF crash.

Almeida is the one who has to prove he is stronger in a GT than Vingegaard, not Vingegaard.

The same goes for Del Toro; for now, he hasn't proven that he is stronger than Carapaz in the high mountains in a GT. His victories outside the Giro are similar to those of Ayuso. And even Valverde, who was a tremendous cyclist, but he wasn't a rider capable of winning the Tour.
He'll have to prove that; for now, it's crazy to say he'll be a problem for Vingegaard in GT.

 

[AmRacer]

But we can't compare Vingegaard with Almeida.

No, but Almeida was flying before his crash. Can he get back to that level again, he could win a GT where neither Pogi and Jonas race.

 

[AmRacer]

Almeida is the one who has to prove he is stronger in a GT than Vingegaard, not Vingegaard.

The same goes for Del Toro; for now, he hasn't proven that he is stronger than Carapaz in the high mountains in a GT. His victories outside the Giro are similar to those of Ayuso. And even Valverde, who was a tremendous cyclist, but he wasn't a rider capable of winning the Tour.
He'll have to prove that; for now, it's crazy to say he'll be a problem for Vingegaard in GT.

Everyone except Pogi must prove that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

No, but Almeida was flying before his crash. Can he get back to that level again, he could win a GT where neither Pogi and Jonas race.

OMG, I hope you're right! Next year is his last opportunity to win a GT, I'm begging to Vingegaard and Pogacar to race the TdF only with Del Toro as a helper.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Mount Kigali was 6km at 6.8% while ECC is 7km at 7.2%. Not exactly light years apart. And while they climb it 3 times, chances are the attacks will only happen on the last climb. Pog is not going to go solo on the first ascent with 2 more to go and flat roads in between.


I didn't know you were such a Pogi fan. Why "fear" Evenepoel?

The first 2 ascents will tire Remco and others more than Pogacar. He will attack in the last time they pass there and his attack will be in the hardest section which is far from the top. In Kigali, he attacked in the hardest section but with only 600m to the top. You can't create a decent gap in 600m.