Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[AlpRaid]

https://www.domestiquecycling.com/e...-the-battle-for-best-of-all-times-in-numbers/

Good article comparing Merckx and Pogacar's palmares.

Merckx's numbers are just incredible but he has two 'weak' spots, Tour wins and World Championships wins where he shares the record of wins with several other riders. These two races also happen to be the most important stage race and the most important one-day race, respectively, so there is a good chance Pogacar overtakes Merckx in both and solidifies his GOAT status claim.

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

 

[hayneplane]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

He doesn’t have to build the totals in exactly the same way.

Are you going to run down Merckx because he didn’t win as many Lombardia in his entire career in as Pogacar has already won with many years left in his career?

 

[vappaxbipmv]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

That's right, he never made an unimaginable junp, he belongs in the clinic section, that's a confirmed fact

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Getting very close to clinic accusations here: back away while in this part of the forum.

 

[Salvarani]

https://www.domestiquecycling.com/e...-the-battle-for-best-of-all-times-in-numbers/

Good article comparing Merckx and Pogacar's palmares.

Merckx's numbers are just incredible but he has two 'weak' spots, Tour wins and World Championships wins where he shares the record of wins with several other riders. These two races also happen to be the most important stage race and the most important one-day race, respectively, so there is a good chance Pogacar overtakes Merckx in both and solidifies his GOAT status claim.

Good find that... and having the best record in those two most important races would definitely solidify that.

 

[BubbaChuck]

ist afunny thing,cause it was peleton started calling pog goat before me,lmaoo.he was 25 and i was like wtf.but they know.they really know.especially rabobank.

 

[MariaB]

https://www.domestiquecycling.com/e...-the-battle-for-best-of-all-times-in-numbers/

Good article comparing Merckx and Pogacar's palmares.

Merckx's numbers are just incredible but he has two 'weak' spots, Tour wins and World Championships wins where he shares the record of wins with several other riders. These two races also happen to be the most important stage race and the most important one-day race, respectively, so there is a good chance Pogacar overtakes Merckx in both and solidifies his GOAT status claim.

Very nice article.

Loved the final part: "That is where the comparison becomes less about numbers and more about context. Merckx raced in a peloton that was smaller, less specialised and far less global. Pogačar operates in a landscape where preparation is optimised, teams are deeper, and rivals arrive at the highest level earlier and in greater numbers."

Which means = Merckx rode against amateur people from 4-5 countries. No comparison.

 

[KZD]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

As much as you don't like it, there was no unimaginable jump, Pogačar improved a lot in 2024 but did so at an age where riders are still expected to do so, especially when they get a more competent coach like Sola. The truth is that Pogačar was already on a trajectory to become one of the best riders ever before 2024, he was the first rider since Hinault to win the Tour and two monuments in the same season and he did so in his early twenties and even manage to win Flanders in 2023, the first Tour winner since Merckx to achieve that.

Pogačar is also not competing to have the same palmares as Merckx, as @hayneplane pointed out, he may not have as many wins in the races that you cherrypicked but he has already more wins at Il Lombardia and I expect him to finish with more Tour, Worlds, Flanders and Liège wins than Merckx which will make even people believe that he is the GOAT.

 

[tobydawq]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

Pog was no slouch in 2023, lol. It's like people completely forget what he was like before the 2024 season.

And he doesn't need 7 MSRs to be in the discussion

 

[vappaxbipmv]

As much as you don't like it, there was no unimaginable jump, Pogačar improved a lot in 2024 but did so at an age where riders are still expected to do so, especially when they get a more competent coach like Sola. The truth is that Pogačar was already on a trajectory to become one of the best riders ever before 2024, he was the first rider since Hinault to win the Tour and two monuments in the same season and he did so in his early twenties and even manage to win Flanders in 2023, the first Tour winner since Merckx to achieve that.

Pogačar is also not competing to have the same palmares as Merckx, as @hayneplane pointed out, he may not have as many wins in the races that you cherrypicked but he has already more wins at Il Lombardia and I expect him to finish with more Tour, Worlds, Flanders and Liège wins than Merckx which will make even people believe that he is the GOAT.

One more thing that you didn't mention. In 2023, even though he got injured in LBL and had a bad preparation for the Tour, which seems to be the go to and only race to judge someone's level, he was already good enough to drop Jonas multiple times. If we take Jonas as a standard, 2022 Pogacar couldn't drop him, 2023 Pogacar, despite disrupted preparation, could, even though Jonas improved. Which to me, means that his top level was higher than that of Jonas but couldn't hold it for 3 weeks and the collapse happened. Which also means that he was much better than people think, looking just at the end result

 

[Cycling111]

Pogacar crushed MVDP in 2023 Tour de France and Vingegaard in Paris-Nice, but memory is selective. Incidentally, MVDP made a significant leap in his performance in 2023.
Yes, It's relevant to remember that in 2023 Pogacar dropped Vingegaard in 3 stages of the Tour despite arriving in worse condition.

He also crushed Remco (and Vingegaard) at Tirreno 2022. It's Remco the one who has to make an impressive leap to win stage races where in some he has been beaten by second-rate cyclists.
Remco wouldn't have beaten Pogacar in the Tour in any of the previous years. And he hasn't been better than Vingegaard either. They forget that to beat the winner, you first have to be better than the runner-up, and he's never been better than Vingegaard in a stage race.

Perhaps if they accept that,...

 

[Berniece]

As much as you don't like it, there was no unimaginable jump, Pogačar improved a lot in 2024 but did so at an age where riders are still expected to do so, especially when they get a more competent coach like Sola. The truth is that Pogačar was already on a trajectory to become one of the best riders ever before 2024, he was the first rider since Hinault to win the Tour and two monuments in the same season and he did so in his early twenties and even manage to win Flanders in 2023, the first Tour winner since Merckx to achieve that.

Pogačar is also not competing to have the same palmares as Merckx, as @hayneplane pointed out, he may not have as many wins in the races that you cherrypicked but he has already more wins at Il Lombardia and I expect him to finish with more Tour, Worlds, Flanders and Liège wins than Merckx which will make even people believe that he is the GOAT.

Flanders isn’t comparable, it had two hills in Merckx time… if it was like today, Merckx would have won it 5 times easily.

 

[hayneplane]

Flanders isn’t comparable, it had two hills in Merckx time… if it was like today, Merckx would have won it 5 times easily.

What era did the race start to become hillier?

 

[Oldman]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

And so Merckx is from another era and suffered from back injuries while still being successful. KZD was making the point about Pogi's serious consecutive wins as a possibility he'll exceed Eddy. Eddy had 13 good years and '65 to '78 didn't provide the depth we see today. No doubt his preparation suffered from the relative knowledge of the time.
Tadej is 5+ years into his career and, if fans can't tolerate his wins in this media era; he may end his time early. The constant depth of scrutiny and certainty that fans express today is a large challenge.
We also see the plight of quality racers constantly challenged by hordes of new pack fodder fighting for every wheel with little prospect of finishing with a competitive bunch. All played out on historic race routes that look more like an obstacle cluttered video game than legitimate race roads. There is little respect for most major performers and team DS's continue to force that pressure. Merckx enjoyed a huge measure of respect in the peloton; vile and violent disrespect from some fans. Thank God there was no internet then.

 

[Oldman]

uh-huh.

let's see pog win 5 giros and 7 MSRs and 3 P-Rs...

also, merckx never made an unimaginable jump from one season to the next as pog did between 23-24 (something that is repeated over and over by many pundits, not just here). if anything merckx dropped in performance after crash at Blois velodrome. he was never able to climb again like he did in 1969.

If Pog doesn't get bored and wins 6 Tours, Vuelta (because everyone insisted), 3 PRs (to piss you off) and decided the Giro was too early/late on his schedule but decided to win 3 more WC RR he might fit that in. MSR is a carnival crap shoot today so I'm not thinking it's a serious race base on just talent. Luck...luck.

 

[Peter von]

It's crazy that any modern cyclist can even compare palmares widt the Cannibal, we agreed decades ago that specialization meant it couldn't be done anymore.

Ultimately surpassing the number of TdFs is step 1 if Pogi want's to become the GOAT; if he does that, then he might already have enough wins in non-Tour races to make the claim, he certainly won't need that many extra big wins.

 

[James M]

Merckx rode in a lego era where cycling wasn’t even considered a profesional sport...and yet Pogacar has outdone Merckxs best season ever acomplished - twice. Like cmon get real. Many and most current and former cyclists past decade say Pogacar already the goat as common sense, pretty self‑explanatory why. Nostalgia is a sickness to some.

 

[Wyndbrook]

Merckx rode in a lego era where cycling wasn’t even considered a sport...and yet Pogacar has outdone Merckxs best season ever acomplished - twice. Like cmon get real. So many and most current and former cyclists past decade say Pogacar is already the goat as common sense, and its pretty self‑explanatory why. Nostalgia is a sickness to some.

Longevity still required.

 

[LosBrolin]

I don’t get how anyone can say cycling wasn’t a sport in Merckx’s time. You can argue Pogacar vs Merckx without rewriting history.

 

[Berniece]

and yet Pogacar has outdone Merckxs best season ever acomplished - twice.

Based on scores that match your preference. PCS says otherwise

 

[James M]

Longevity still required.

I agree with this. Since it's not a factual debate but one based on preference, longevity is definitely something I can agree with to as part of defining greatness for sure.

My reply was more directed at people who try to compare results tit for tat across two entirely different eras, which aren’t really comparable in the first place for self-explanatory reasons that it comes across as very yeah you get it.

 

[AmRacer]

Based on scores that match your preference. PCS says otherwise

Does PCS say anything about the competition and other circumstances?

 

[James M]

Does PCS say anything about the competition and other circumstances?

PCS also says Del Toro is the second best rider in the world last season...its not worth responding to even imo. Its not serious if anything if PCS is the only argument left then its again just kinda self-explanatory.

 

[Cookster15]

Longevity still required.

Pogacar turned professional in 2019 when he started riding for UAE. But has been around since 2018. 7 years and counting as a pro. I think he has ticked the longevity box but he still has work to do to match Merckyx in that regard.

Also, on PCS points discussed upthread, between 1970 and 1975 Merckyx accumulated over 5,000 points per season. Pogacar's best season so far was last year at 4921 points.

But I think the main argument in favor of Pogacar is the level of competition. Merckyx's era really is not comparable to today.

 

[Cycling111]

PCS also says Del Toro is the second best rider in the world last season...its not worth responding to even imo. Its not serious if anything if PCS is the only argument left then its again just kinda self-explanatory.

Sean Kelly, Moser and De Vlaeminck over Hinault
Kissipuu over Tour winners

Only Mexicans believe that Del Toro is the second best cyclist in the world according to that ranking.