Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Rackham]

No.

The Vuelta has never had the historical prestige of the Giro. Even Indurain went to win the Giro two times, (three, but he lost one) and he didn't go tothe Vuelta until he was already washed and forced by Banesto because he lost the Tour.
Merckx went only one year for an obscene amount of money and with a prearranged route to focus on the classics he wanted to win that year.

That's the importance they placed on the Vuelta. Giro prestige was always far superior.

The Vuelta had been rising since the early 2010's tbh. Froome and Contador did a lot for the Tour of Spain, as did the profile of the race which went heavy into muritos and those hilarious inhumane rampas. So nothing is set in stone, i.e. for example we see Paris-Nice starting to lose some of its lustre and a race like the Tour de Suisse has really fallen off a cliff in terms of renown. So I'd say "race importance" is absolutely fluid.

The only races that are totally immune are the Tour and Roubaix tbh. And yes, the Tour has got to remain Pog's number one season objective for this reason.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

No, it's not. If Pogacar won a Vuelta against Vingegaard he would value it more than a Giro win against Martinez.
Do you get my point? They are so close that COMPETITION LEVEL matters.

San Remo is the best example of that. Even when criticized for being a boring race, it never lost its prestige.
Did the San Remo race lose its prestige in the 90s and 00s because fans called it a boring race?
The fact that you like the Vuelta more now doesn't imply that it has greater historical prestige than the Giro.

Nobody prioritizes the Vuelta; it's a race for those who lose the Tour or DNF. The Vuelta hasn't gained prestige; it's simply a way to salvage the season. It's the end-of-year makeup exam.

 

[Rou]

We can talk all we want but Grand Tours are in a different stratosphere compared to one day races.
The clearest example is last year's Vuelta.
Because of the 'incidents' that occured there a whole team had to REBRAND completely.
Why? Because the event was viewed by hundreds of millions of people and it's media and political importance was much much bigger than even World's RR.
Paris-Roubaix is my favourite one day race of the year but I am not delusional to put it in the same league as Grand Tours.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I don't know if that's the problem. If no one had issues, and he didn't have to switch his bike 3 times, the result would be the same, but it wouldn't have been Van Aert that won. So the watts are only an issue if he needs to be the best in the race, but you don't need to be the best to win Paris-Roubaix.

As I already said luck plays a big role and Wout, after some bad luck there, finally conquered the race (I am glad he did). The strongest cobbles guy didnt win yesterday but its always good to be as strong as possible to maximize chances. If Pog bacomes obsessed about this race (like he was about MSR) I see him bulking up even more when he's released from the Tour duty by the sheikhs (I think it will happen within 2 years).

 

[Peter von]

on the Vuelta vs. Worlds + Lombardia (and other one day races ) Debate:
I think because Pogi hasn't won the Vuelta it would be nice for him to tick off that particular box. But it's not like anyone is going to look at his palmares after his career and go "oh he was ok, but 6 TdF wins doesn't really count with no Vueltas".

a Vuelta on its own is great, but when you already have multiple TdFs on your palmares, winning a Vuelta won't prove much, you are the best GC rider if you win the tour, full stop. Pogi winning or not winnig the Vuelta doesn't move the needle a lot; maybe in a super specific way if he looses at the Tour to Vingegaard, but then goes and beats him in Spain.

Winning Tour and the big one day races has been rare since the olden days, so it helps a lot on the prestige front. If we go down the Pogi vs. Merkx GOAT debate, it will be decided by number of TdF wins and number of monuments + worlds, some monuments will give more points than others here.

I think Pogi might go for Vuelta at some point, but I think largely he only decides on the post-tour schedule after the Tour and so it will depend on how he feels, what his recovery data is saying and the worlds route.
Or maybe he will remain a top GC rider for more years than a top classics rider.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

History, the fans, the sponsors and Pogi himself couldn’t really care less if he wins a Vuelta.
He wanted this Roubaix bad

 

[Krzysztof_O]

History, the fans, the sponsors and Pogi himself couldn’t really care less if he wins a Vuelta.
He wanted this Roubaix bad

Roubaix is way more important in historical context: this would prove he can win across all terrains of big races. OTOH he's already a proven stage racing champion and one Vuelta won't change it (even if its more important when compared to PR in isolation).

 

[BubbaChuck]

How was VDP that strong and pog looked meh. I dont wanna hear about chase,cause Vdp was doing crazy efforts. First time i saw somebody out working Pogacar by that margin in a long time. He was on ok day,not great.Why,nobody knows.

 

[Rackham]

Roubaix is way more important in historical context: this would prove he can win across all terrains of big races. OTOH he's already a proven stage racing champion and one Vuelta won't change it (even if its more important when compared to PR in isolation).

I'll add a caveat to all this and it's the numbers game. Merckx has 11 GT's, Pog has 5. He needs to start winning more because honestly his stage race palmarès is a bit light considering how dominant he is. He should have more by now tbh. There's a point where focus on Monuments becomes a detriment to his GT tally and he's almost at that point (he'll be 28 so he's got to get a move on). 5 Lombardias mean squat when he only has one Giro, for example.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'll add a caveat to all this and it's the numbers game. Merckx has 11 GT's, Pog has 5. He needs to start winning more because honestly his stage race palmarès is a bit light considering how dominant he is. He should have more by now tbh. There's a point where focus on Monuments becomes a detriment to his GT tally and he's almost at that point (he'll be 28 so he's got to get a move on). 5 Lombardias mean squat when he only has one Giro, for example.

If Pog gets 6 Tours and 4 WC (surpassing Merckx in both) then it would compensate for a gap of 2-3 GT I think, equalling him with Merckx (assuming their monuments totals are the same and he wins PR).

 

[Red Rick]

Cosmo Catalano did a pretty nice analysis of the race highlighting how much energy Pogacar wasts and how much energy Van Aert was consistently saving.

I wouldn't be surprised Pogacar was stronger when the day started, but in Roubaix the accumulation of wasted energy matters a lot, and Pogacar is super used to be able to waste energy and winning anyway that he doesn't ever ride very economically.

 

[Rackham]

If Pog gets 6 Tours and 4 WC (surpassing Merckx in both) then it would compensate for a gap of 2-3 GT I think, equalling him with Merckx (assuming their monuments totals are the same and he wins PR).

Then watch Seixas win 8 Tours in a row and the French media declare him the greatest of all time whilst Pog fans curse those two TdF's lost versus Vinge.

I'm only half joking as well. GOAT narratives are also... fluid. And the media plays a bigly role too.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I wouldn't be surprised Pogacar was stronger when the day started, but in Roubaix the accumulation of wasted energy matters a lot, and Pogacar is super used to be able to waste energy and winning anyway that he doesn't ever ride very economically.

He chased alone for some time before Arenberg (after burning some teammates) but what could he do? He needed to power up more after some turns but Wout is simply better at off road riding.

 

[Red Rick]

Then watch Seixas win 8 Tours in a row and the French media declare him the greatest of all time whilst Pog fans curse those two TdF's lost versus Vinge.

I'm only half joking as well. GOAT narratives are also... fluid. And the media plays a bigly role too.

I've seen a certain group of fans go from "Tennis is all about Grand Slam count" to "prettiest backhand" and "only billionaire"

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I've seen a certain group of fans go from "Tennis is all about Grand Slam count" to "prettiest backhand" and "only billionaire"

Rogie the GOAT!

 

[Red Rick]

Rogie the GOAT!

No, the correct theorem is 'mury goat'

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I agree. He might skip P-R (or the cobbles altogether) next year to focus on GT treble, but will definitely be back afterwards.

I think he will.
He doesn’t need to change how he rides on the cobbles, he can just age out the cyclo crossers for a year or two while winning more grand tours and come back at 29 or 30 with less competition

 

[Red Rick]

I'm curious how people watch Pogacar exit the TdF gassed and then insist the treble is doable.

2024 was by far the best shot because Vingegaard was only doing the TdF. And now with Seixas on the horizon, it's not gonna get easier.

 

[canina82]

I'll add a caveat to all this and it's the numbers game. Merckx has 11 GT's, Pog has 5. He needs to start winning more because honestly his stage race palmarès is a bit light considering how dominant he is. He should have more by now tbh. There's a point where focus on Monuments becomes a detriment to his GT tally and he's almost at that point (he'll be 28 so he's got to get a move on). 5 Lombardias mean squat when he only has one Giro, for example.

Somehow I agree with this. A rider like him can't end his career with 7 ot 8 GTs. He is probably the best GT rider ever when we talk about ability.

 

[BubbaChuck]

If he commits only to GT racing and altitude camps,bascically Jonas program. He didnot look tired in 2024.

 

[canina82]

Maybe for you but for the 99% of the cycling world the Vuelta is bigger. We can delude ourselves by not liking some race but reality is reality.
I prefer LBL and GDL to MSR but MSR is more prestigious. That's it.

MSR is more prestigious than LBL? Oh man, you need to learn some cycling history

 

[Brullnux]

Maybe for you but for the 99% of the cycling world the Vuelta is bigger. We can delude ourselves by not liking some race but reality is reality.

The world's is on par with the Vuelta, though the specific position depends on the rider. You get the added prestige of being WORLD CHAMPION and having a special jersey for a year, which does matter in terms of image.

I think that is the case more if you're Pogacar who raced every big race than a Vingegaard or traditional GC rider. But it's definitely arguable.

 

[cafe_rider]

I think Pogacar can see the threat Seixas will pose over the coming years. Maybe not this year or 2027 but certainly by 2028. If he gets the 5th Tour and wins Liege, Lombarida, Worlds and the Tour this year, i think he will focus on the 2027 Tour as that would be key from getting the 6th, plus WC is much earlier and potential to have a 4th title. If he can see off Seixas threat next year, 2028 would be free for Giro/ Vuelta double and Olympic Gold as the focus. By 2029 he can go to 70kg and get the Paris Roubaix, MvDP and Wout will be 34 by then!

 

[canina82]

Cosmo Catalano did a pretty nice analysis of the race highlighting how much energy Pogacar wasts and how much energy Van Aert was consistently saving.

I wouldn't be surprised Pogacar was stronger when the day started, but in Roubaix the accumulation of wasted energy matters a lot, and Pogacar is super used to be able to waste energy and winning anyway that he doesn't ever ride very economically.

Where did Pogacar wasted much more energy than WVA? Excluding misfortunes.

 

[Rackham]

Somehow I agree with this. A rider like him can't wnd his career with 7 ot 8 GTs. He is probably the best GT rider ever when we talk about ability.

Right. And it's about the projection of power as well that sticks long after a rider has retired. Consider this: demolishing the Giro for fun with a ten minute lead looks far more impressive than a two man sprint versus Pidcock to win MSR. Pog needs more Giro 2024 style GT wins.

Last year's TdF left a bad impression as well because he was sulking in the third week.