Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Rackham]

I’ve been following professional cycling for 35 years, and in my view, Merckx would likely have half his palmarès if he raced in today’s peloton.

Of course, that's because Merckx would have been suspended for a large part of his career if modern UCI rules were applied to him. He's not the GOAT and it shocks me to see the whitewashing of his career constantly.

 

[No Excuses]

Wout is totally beatable; in fact, he was last year by Pogacar.

Wout was down about 30s. If Pog and Mads rode harder, iam not sure if he comes back.
Problem was: Pedersen didn't have his best day and Pog had to dig deep to rejoin the group.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Wout was down about 30s. If Pog and Mads rode harder, iam not sure if he comes back.
Problem was: Pedersen didn't have his best day and Pog had to dig deep to rejoin the group.

Van Aert had the cars ahead of him. But Pogacar explained it: he felt coocked since the long comeback he had to make after the first puncutre. I suppose he was saving energy for one last attack and he didn't want to ride so many kilometers alone to end like in Amstel.

Van Aert is beatable in Roubaix. This year, with these conditions, he wasn't, but I don't see him as unbeatable like VDP, who will definitely depend on having problems again to beat him.

In a race without incidents, Van Aert seems beatable. Yesterday everyone had incidents, but Van Aert's was less detrimental in comparison.

 

[rafa92]

Van Aert had the cars ahead of him. But Pogacar explained it: he felt coocked since the long comeback he had to make after the first puncutre. I suppose he was saving energy for one last attack and he didn't want to ride so many kilometers alone to end like in Amstel.

Van Aert is beatable in Roubaix. This year, with these conditions, he wasn't, but I don't see him as unbeatable like VDP, who will definitely depend on having problems again to beat him.

In a race without incidents, Van Aert seems beatable. Yesterday everyone had incidents, but Van Aert's was less detrimental in comparison.

pogacar at roubaix is probably stronger than everyone if they all have the same amount of misfortunes, except of course for mvdp which in this race is the best rider and will probably be the strongest for the next 3-4 years

 

[No Excuses]

Next year, he seems to set his sight on the GT treble (or at the very least the Tour-Vuelta double, as the gap between the two will be quite long and WC takes place before Vuelta). To accomplish that, he needs a GT-specific preparation (similar to 2024), which would also mean a very light spring, including skipping the cobbled classics. Maybe he can do Itzulia/Liege before the Giro, but that is pretty much all.

Makes sense to me. If he gets this done, he can focus on roubaix and classics in 2028.
My preference is that he waits until 2029 with roubaix, but teddy won't skip it 2 years in a row.

 

[canina82]

Makes sense to me. If he gets this done, he can focus on roubaix and classics in 2028.
My preference is that he waits until 2029 with roubaix, but teddy won't skip it 2 years in a row.

ORR will be his goal.
This schedule would be interesting:
SB
MSR
RVV
PR
Ardennes Treble
Dauphiné
ORR
Vuelta
GdL

 

[onefortheroad]

Choke for what? Having a case for best cyclist in history? It doesn't matter what he wins, there will always be people saying he's not and people he is. In reality, he won't care at all.
TdF and Giro are that much more important and he can't ride all three of them. He won't ride Giro if he wants to be competitive for spring classics, he will have to ride TdF, because team owners won't let him not to and he won't care for Vuelta, because Worlds and autumn classics are more important.

He probably does not even have a hard on for the Vuelta because it would be too easy. His real drive is the 5 Monuments / the five in one season, plus Worlds and the autumn classics. The GT triple is likely his lowest priority. Not impossible even with the fatigue, but only doable in his prime. How long will it last?!

 

[canina82]

He is still on his way to become the first rider ever to win 4 monuments in a season.
He is on his way to have 12 consecutive podium places.

So let's not forget this season can still be the best classics season ever.

 

[vappa]

Wout was down about 30s. If Pog and Mads rode harder, iam not sure if he comes back.
Problem was: Pedersen didn't have his best day and Pog had to dig deep to rejoin the group.

A bigger problem was that Laporte was just sitting there doing nothing so on top of them both being cooked already they won't just pull all out with him on the wheel

 

[TrekCyclist]

van Aert is becoming a bit of Pogacars Nemesis. First Hautacam 22 (basically he was a pain in his *** during the whole TdF that year), then last year's Champs Élysées and now PR.

 

[snipeheem]

van Aert is becoming a bit of Pogacars Nemesis. First Hautacam 22 (basically he was a pain in his *** during the whole TdF that year), then last year's Champs Élysées and now PR.

Stop it. Hautacam doesnt matter he was already done, champs? He was tired after whole Tour + crash before Hautacam, PR Florian and UAE cost him that win.

 

[GdL]

van Aert is becoming a bit of Pogacars Nemesis. First Hautacam 22 (basically he was a pain in his *** during the whole TdF that year), then last year's Champs Élysées and now PR.

To me, VdP is his true nemesis. Van Aert is obviously massive, but he isn’t an insurmountable obstacle. VdP is the actual roadblock; without him, Pogačar would have swept all five Monuments last year. To think about it, he’d probably have three MSR titles by now if it wasn’t for him.

I don’t even see VdP as a rival in the traditional sense because their goals only overlap on a tiny set of races. And honestly, those races probably aren’t even Pogačar’s top priorities, they only matter because he hasn't won them yet. The proof is that he won’t be back at MSR; he just wanted to win it once to tick the box. I expect the same story with Roubaix (if he manages to win it once, he’s done with it).

 

[canina82]

To me, VdP is his true nemesis. Van Aert is obviously massive, but he isn’t an insurmountable obstacle. VdP is the actual roadblock; without him, Pogačar would have swept all five Monuments last year. To think about it, he’d probably have three MSR titles by now if it wasn’t for him.

I don’t even see VdP as a rival in the traditional sense because their goals only overlap on a tiny set of races. And honestly, those races probably aren’t even Pogačar’s top priorities, they only matter because he hasn't won them yet. The proof is that he won’t be back at MSR; he just wanted to win it once to tick the box. I expect the same story with Roubaix (if he manages to win it once, he’s done with it).

Pogacar at this moment only knew 2 rivals: Vingegaard and MVP. Roglic, Remco, Wout could beat him once in a while but most of the time and with proper preparation, Pogacar just smashes these 3 riders.

 

[Oldman]

Pogacar at this moment only knew 2 rivals: Vingegaard and MVP. Roglic, Remco, Wout could beat him once in a while but most of the time and with proper preparation, Pogacar just smashes these 3 riders.

And Sean Kelly seemed pleased and encouraged other riders to take heart at Wout's aggression/tactics while beating Tadej.
Sean's partially right but he is glossing over the serious efforts by guys like Seixas, Pidcock and a host of others that lay down serious challenges in the one day races. More will break through as they mature and as Tadej strategies in one-day and GTs start getting assaulted by more teams. Decathlon has done wonders in a short time with the resources they have as have others. They don't race to lose like some safer, big budget teams. It's getting more interesting and then maybe, just maybe; they'll also quit hating Pogacar because he can win. That's something he shares with MvP.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I’ve been following professional cycling for 35 years, and in my view, Merckx would likely have half his palmarès if he raced in today’s peloton.

In the 1970s, the extreme specialization we see now simply didn't exist. I’m not a 'fan' of any particular rider, but what Tadej Pogačar is doing is truly from another world. If you had asked any cycling fan before 2020 if a rider could win multiple Monuments, two Grand Tours, and the World Championships in a single season, they’d have thought you're out of your mind.

How many Monuments did the strongest GT riders ( Armstrong, Indurain, Pantani, Ullrich, Contador, Froome) of the last 35 years win? Zero. There’s a reason for that: the physical and tactical requirements for a three-week Tour and a one-day Classic moved into two different universes.

People talk about Merckx being 'fast,' but he wasn't 'Van Aert fast.' He was so 'fast' that in the 1973 Worlds, he couldn't even follow Freddy Maertens' lead-out and lost the sprint to Felice Gimondi. Maertens was essentially the Wout van Aert of his era, and Merckx stood no chance against him in a straight sprint.

I don’t care for 'who is the GOAT' debates because comparing eras is often futile. However, Pogačar is proving to be more influential than Merckx precisely because he is doing what everyone thought was no longer possible. For decades, the consensus was that if you wanted to be the best GT rider, you had to sacrifice the Classics. Armstrong was the blueprint for this: one peak, one race, one goal.

Even when Peter Sagan was at his peak, some people in this forum discussed him as a 'GOAT' contender because it seemed impossible to be the best one-day rider while being even remotely competitive in the high mountains. Now, Pogačar has shattered that glass ceiling. He’s being compared to Merckx, but he’s doing it in a globally saturated era with specialized training, 50+ competing nations, and a much larger pool of truly professionalized athletes. Pogačar isn't just winning; he’s rewriting the rules of what a modern cyclist is allowed to achieve.

I have been following for twenty years or so, so neither of us saw Merckx in his pomp by the sound of it.

I do wonder if Armstrong had wanted to, could he have won some monuments? I think he probably could.

Personally I think there are arguments for and against the competition being better now. I know there are more countries competing, but it’s still Belgian and Dutch riders dominating the classics, and largely Europeans winning the grand tours, nothings really changed there.

Merckx had Poulidor and then Ocana and Gimondi in the grand tours, Pogacar has been somewhat fortunate in the sense he’s only had Vingegaard as a serious contender in the grand tours. Let’s not forget Vingegaard beat him twice, that never happened to Merckx, it may have happened the year Ocana was so good, but Merckx put pressure on him and forced a mistake from Ocana.

Merckx had De Vlaeminck in the classics and Pog has Van der Poel, their main classic rivals are about on par in my opinion.
Pogacar is a fairly small guy so it is impressive he can be competitive in races like Roubaix, and I think he can probably win at least one.

Pogacar can still overtake Merckx, don’t get me wrong. They have a similar record of big race wins by the age Pog is now. He still has a lot of work to do though.
He doesn’t need quite the number of grand tours or monuments to overtake him, but he’s still quite a distance away for me.

I’d agree if you said Pog is the best rider since Merckx though

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Of course, that's because Merckx would have been suspended for a large part of his career if modern UCI rules were applied to him. He's not the GOAT and it shocks me to see the whitewashing of his career constantly.

Why would he? How do you know he wouldn’t be squeaky clean with whatever modern help Pog may or may not have ? Anyway that’s another debate.
Pog more or less had a mental breakdown at the end of last years tour, you could say he might struggle mentally in Merckx’ era just as easily as you could say ‘Merckx competed against farmers’ and couldn’t live with pogs era.

 

[canina82]

Why would he? How do you know he wouldn’t be squeaky clean with whatever modern help Pog may or may not have ? Anyway that’s another debate.
Pog more or less had a mental breakdown at the end of last years tour, you could say he might struggle mentally in Merckx’ era just as easily as you could say ‘Merckx competed against farmers’ and couldn’t live with pogs era.

There is no such thing as training session in the Merckx's era. Their training was doing 300 races per year. Different era, worse quality and worse competition due to extreme unfair conditions (few riders were professional).

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

pogacar at roubaix is probably stronger than everyone if they all have the same amount of misfortunes, except of course for mvdp which in this race is the best rider and will probably be the strongest for the next 3-4 years

Perhaps splitting hairs, Van der poel is stronger now but if Pog really wanted a Roubaix, times on his side. Van der poel will be 32 next Roubaix, Pog will be theoretically in his absolute prime of 28. Van der poel might win one more, but if Pogi rides the next 4 or 5 Roubaixs I think that’s all Van der poel could manage.

 

[GdL]

I have been following for twenty years or so, so neither of us saw Merckx in his pomp by the sound of it.

I do wonder if Armstrong had wanted to, could he have won some monuments? I think he probably could.

Personally I think there are arguments for and against the competition being better now. I know there are more countries competing, but it’s still Belgian and Dutch riders dominating the classics, and largely Europeans winning the grand tours, nothings really changed there.

Merckx had Poulidor and then Ocana and Gimondi in the grand tours, Pogacar has been somewhat fortunate in the sense he’s only had Vingegaard as a serious contender in the grand tours. Let’s not forget Vingegaard beat him twice, that never happened to Merckx, it may have happened the year Ocana was so good, but Merckx put pressure on him and forced a mistake from Ocana.

Merckx had De Vlaeminck in the classics and Pog has Van der Poel, their main classic rivals are about on par in my opinion.
Pogacar is a fairly small guy so it is impressive he can be competitive in races like Roubaix, and I think he can probably win at least one.

Pogacar can still overtake Merckx, don’t get me wrong. They have a similar record of big race wins by the age Pog is now. He still has a lot of work to do though.
He doesn’t need quite the number of grand tours or monuments to overtake him, but he’s still quite a distance away for me.

I’d agree if you said Pog is the best rider since Merckx though

I’ve little doubt Armstrong could’ve won more than one monument if he’d really wanted to. But I seriously doubt he could’ve won seven Tours while fighting for the win in every Monument and big race from March to October.

There’s a massive difference between the two approaches, and for me, the comparison between Armstrong and Pogačar isn't even close. If Armstrong or someone like Induráin had tried to keep that level of intensity all season, being as competitive in the Classics as they were in the Grand Tours every single year I’d bet they would’ve ended up with mediocre results at best.

There’s a reason cyclists specialized so heavily for 30 years. It’s not like Pogačar figured out a secret that the others missed; he’s just so incredibly strong that he can beat specialists who have spent their whole season peaking for just one or two races.

Speaking of Armstrong, yo may remember that in two of his wins (2003 and 2005), he wasn’t actually that dominant, and that was with him focusing 100% of his energy on just the Tour. At that level, the margins are so thin that it takes very little to drop from 1st to 10th

 

[BubbaChuck]

Time gaps in Eddie's Tour wins. 18 minutes, 13, 10,11 and 8. With 40 full time pros.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

There is no such thing as training session in the Merckx's era. Their training was doing 300 races per year. Different era, worse quality and worse competition due to extreme unfair conditions (few riders were professional).

I can see that argument.
Then again you could say Gimondi, Poulidor, Ocana and Zoetemelk represented a greater and more consistent threat than Vingegaard, at least in the grand tours.
‘Worse quality’ is very subjective and debatable.

 

[AlpRaid]

I meant MTF, I apologise for the confusion

Oh that makes sense.

However, mountain top finishes were much rarer at that time.

In 1976 when there were four, it was considered completely out of the ordinary and a tour that prioritize climbers. And not surprisingly that was the one tour that Van Impe won. On any other course he wouldn’t have. It’s one of the reasons why I’m not a fan of the ever increasing mountain roots that lessens the need for more all round qualities.

 

[canina82]

I can see that argument.
Then again you could say Gimondi, Poulidor, Ocana and Zoetemelk represented a greater and more consistent threat than Vingegaard, at least in the grand tours.
‘Worse quality’ is very subjective and debatable.

Worse quality is not debatable, it's pure statistics. It's a fact. Being the best of 50 professional riders, it's different from being the best of 5000 professional riders. But let's not continue this conversation to not be off topic.

Regarding his schedule, there is any chance he races FW?

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I’ve little doubt Armstrong could’ve won more than one monument if he’d really wanted to. But I seriously doubt he could’ve won seven Tours while fighting for the win in every Monument and big race from March to October.

There’s a massive difference between the two approaches, and for me, the comparison between Armstrong and Pogačar isn't even close. If Armstrong or someone like Induráin had tried to keep that level of intensity all season, being as competitive in the Classics as they were in the Grand Tours every single year I’d bet they would’ve ended up with mediocre results at best.

There’s a reason cyclists specialized so heavily for 30 years. It’s not like Pogačar figured out a secret that the others missed; he’s just so incredibly strong that he can beat specialists who have spent their whole season peaking for just one or two races.

Speaking of Armstrong, yo may remember that in two of his wins (2003 and 2005), he wasn’t actually that dominant, and that was with him focusing 100% of his energy on just the Tour. At that level, the margins are so thin that it takes very little to drop from 1st to 10th

We’re in agreement really, Merckx and Pog are the only ones to have really done it in both consistently since Coppi. Hinault dabbled but his monument wins weren’t up to them, though he did have a lot of grand tour wins.

Armstrong conceivably could have won a handful of monuments and at least 4 tours, which would put him fairly close to Pog, at least at this moment.

If I were pushed I’d say Pog has had probably the weakest grand tour rivals of Merckx, Armstrong and himself, he really has only had one rival capable of winning a tour. Merckx had several, Armstrong had several.

You could say Vingegaard is better than anyone they beat, and you might be right, maybe.
Overall though the cream of the crop in the current era is, If not worse, not better than Merckx or Armstrongs time.

 

[BubbaChuck]

i mean ocana was much worse than pog and had ability to destroy him.picture what would pog do with him.