Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

[Peter von]

I don’t care for 'who is the GOAT' debates because comparing eras is often futile. However, Pogačar is proving to be more influential than Merckx precisely because he is doing what everyone thought was no longer possible.

Yeah, this is the thing. GOAT or no GOAT, that is largely a question of personal perspectives. But what is undeniable is that Pogi is doing what we thought haven't been remotely possible since Hinault or even earlier.

 

[Gargamel35]

This is so stupid. Merckx was best in his time and Pog is best in his time. Comparing two completely different eras in any sport is impossible. The preparation level of competition today is highest in history of the sport. In the old days, fenoms (with good support) had it way easier, because they had to fight competition that was not as professional as today. So you were able to rack up wins all over the place. Today that is way harder and you need to be really, really special with serious support system behind you.

You didn't see anyone getting even close to Merckx results not because riders today are worse but because riders are so much better that level between best and the rest is so small. It took Pogačar level of crazy good to get that extra separation against the peloton to be able to win so much. It's a generational talent, probably even more with all the right support to make it happen.

In that context Pog is on the Merckx level, probably better, even if results at the end won't be the same or better.

 

[canina82]

LBL squad just got worse: Del Toro, Christen, Narvaez are all out. McNulty had a heavy spring schedule. I don't know if he will have someone to put a hard tempo in La Redoute.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

I don't know if you're trying to make the point that only Europeans can be good at cycling or what, but if you didn't notice, there are active riders from USA, Australia, UK, Ecuador, Colombia, Slovenia, Denmark and Belgium who have won GTs. No Italians, French or Spanish, though not for lack of headcount in the peloton. Meanwhile Merckx had pretty much only riders from these 3 nations to compete against. So...

Cycling still has a chauvinistic and classist aspect.

Anything outside of certain countries, or outside of cyclocross riders, is seen as evil by some fans.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

I don't know if you're trying to make the point that only Europeans can be good at cycling or what, but if you didn't notice, there are active riders from USA, Australia, UK, Ecuador, Colombia, Slovenia, Denmark and Belgium who have won GTs. No Italians, French or Spanish, though not for lack of headcount in the peloton. Meanwhile Merckx had pretty much only riders from these 3 nations to compete against. So...

My point is Europeans still win everything big in road cycling.
It’s a European sport at the end of the day.
Dutch, swiss, Luxembourg, Spanish riders had won the tour before Merckx.

A lot of dross makes up any Peloton.
At least Merckx era had a handful of genuine contenders who were all better than Cadel Evans or Egan Bernal.
Pog only has one in Vingegaard who is very good but has also beaten him twice.

 

[Extinction]

My point is Europeans still win everything big in road cycling.
It’s a European sport at the end of the day.
Dutch, swiss, Luxembourg, Spanish riders had won the tour before Merckx.

A lot of dross makes up any Peloton.
At least Merckx era had a handful of genuine contenders who were all better than Cadel Evans or Egan Bernal.
Pog only has one in Vingegaard who is very good but has also beaten him twice.

The level has gotten so high and the pond from which to draw the big fish so much bigger that comparisons between the two eras are impossible. That said, one such as Pogacar or Vingegaard to be in their position, because of the above mentioned stuff, means they have aerobic capacities that those in Merckx's era likely didn't have. As the only way Pog and Vingo can be so dominant in today's sport, means they have to be off the charts physiologically.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Merckx rode against semi-pro farmers from 5 countries.

Stop it.

Gimondi, Poulidor, Ocana, Zoetemelk were pretty good for farmers. All of them would be at least podiuming today.
Pog rides against one fishermen, and loses to him at least 33.33% of the time.
You stop it

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

The level has gotten so high and the pond from which to draw the big fish so much bigger that comparisons between the two eras are impossible. That said, one such as Pogacar or Vingegaard to be in their position, because of the above mentioned stuff, means they have aerobic capacities that those in Merckx's era likely didn't have. As the only way Pog and Vingo can be so dominant in today's sport, means they have to be off the charts physiologically.

I’m not sure I agree, riders are faster overall for a multitude of reasons but the level of competition is debatable. As you said, difficult to compare.

To dismiss Merckx era as a farmers era as some have, is like saying Pele or Maradona were no good because they didn’t have to play Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan in the World Cup

 

[Extinction]

I’m not sure I agree, riders are faster overall for a multitude of reasons but the level of competition is debatable. As you said, difficult to compare.

To dismiss Merckx era as a farmers era as some have, is like saying Pele or Maradona were no good because they didn’t have to play Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan in the World Cup

I certainly don't dismiss the Merckx era, but it's undeniable that the methods of recruitment, and from the global arena, with all the scientific data at hand, makes it irrefutabile that to just be World Tour pro today you've gotta have higher numbers and this results in the whole level being raised and the consequences for the status of the truely big riders it implies.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I’m not sure I agree, riders are faster overall for a multitude of reasons but the level of competition is debatable. As you said, difficult to compare.

To dismiss Merckx era as a farmers era as some have, is like saying Pele or Maradona were no good because they didn’t have to play Saudi Arabia or Uzbekistan in the World Cup

Were Slovenians even racing in Merckx time? Would a Pogacar be possible then? Eastern half of Europe couldn't do it most of the time due to the iron curtain. The competition was weaker because there were less people involved in cycling, not just from the eastern part of Europe but in general.

 

[Berniece]

Would a Pogacar be possible then?

No, because the bikes were ***. He wouldn't stand a chance in cobbled classics with his weight

 

[Krzysztof_O]

No, because the bikes were ***. He wouldn't stand a chance in cobbled classics with his weight

No, I meant in general a strong cyclist from the Eastern Europe. Pogacar would have to adapt and would weight a few kilos more they way Merckx would have to adapt to today's mountains competition (weighting a few kilos less).

 

[The bald fraud]

LBL squad just got worse: Del Toro, Christen, Narvaez are all out. McNulty had a heavy spring schedule. I don't know if he will have someone to put a hard tempo in La Redoute.

I do not think Narvaez was ever considered for LBL - though he should be healthy now (he is listed for Amstel). Losing Del Toro and Christen is surely a blow for LBL, but still not a disaster.

At the moment, Cosnefroy, Novak and Sivakov listed in addition to Pogačar. They will probably add Wellens (pending on his condition after Amstel), other options are McNulty, Vine and Vermaerke. No reason to be worried (okay, WTF is happening with Sivakov? He seems to be completely out of form for the last two years).

 

[Daywalker600]

Were Slovenians even racing in Merckx time? Would a Pogacar be possible then? Eastern half of Europe couldn't do it most of the time due to the iron curtain. The competition was weaker because there were less people involved in cycling, not just from the eastern part of Europe but in general.

For historical accuracy sake - Yugoslavia, as Slovenia was part of it in Merx time was never behind iron curtain, nor the eastern block, nor lies in the east. Yugoslavia had pretty strong domestic cycling league, best cyclists were from Slovenia and Croatia. Domestic leagues in other sports (football, basketball) were strong as well on pair with every other nation. But sportists rarely went abroad to foreign league, due to specific laws. This trend stopped in the 80s.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Were Slovenians even racing in Merckx time? Would a Pogacar be possible then? Eastern half of Europe couldn't do it most of the time due to the iron curtain. The competition was weaker because there were less people involved in cycling, not just from the eastern part of Europe but in general.

Slovenia would have been part of Yugoslavia Yugoslavia had a team at the Tour de France before Coppis time.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Slovenia would have been part of Yugoslavia Yugoslavia had a team at the Tour de France before Coppis time.

Iron curtain times were from 1945 to 1990, more or less. In my country a lot of good cyclists couldn't compete with the west most of the time. It's impossible nowadays that top10 of an important race are from Belgium because the international competition is stronger than before.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

Iron curtain times were from 1945 to 1990, more or less. In my country a lot of good cyclists couldn't compete with the west most of the time. It's impossible nowadays that top10 of an important race are from Belgium because the international competition is stronger than before.

That’s true but in Merckx time in the top ten of the tdf there were regularly Spanish, Dutch, French, Portuguese and Italian riders.

The big monuments were dominated by Belgians, Dutch and Italians, but apart from Pogacar who was born a short tt away from Italy, they still are.

 

[Red Rick]

Pog doesnt need a team for LBL

Red Bull will be dumb enough to control the race

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

There’s another argument here.
Today cycling is so specialised and expensive to get in to at a decent level.
In years gone by cycling was a cheap sport for the peasants.
Now you need thousands of pounds worth of bike, plus kit to be able to compete. It’s not like football.
You could argue the talent pool for cyclists is lower since it’s less accessible.

 

[BubbaChuck]

lol,ocana with bad lungs matched eddie in tts. peopel are just talking about stuff thye dont know anything about.pog would run circles around everybody in 60s in cobbles,hills or climbs. always remember the harder it is,the better for pog. with bigger bikes,pogs recovery becomes even more important.the reason why guy like ocana was bad in classics is due to fact,he had no snap.his anaeribic engine was nothing in comp to pog.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Pog doesnt need a team for LBL

Red Bull will be dumb enough to control the race

This time it makes sense. If there are doubts about Pogacar's performance, Remco is the next favorite.
Remco can't act like a third-leveloutsider either; he'll have to take responsibility.

There's a bit of hypocrisy surrounding this whole responsibility issue. At Roubaix, Van Aert was favorite in the sprint and looked fresher, and nobody criticized Pogacar for pulling when he was so clearly exhausted.

 

[BahamontesPhantom]

lol,ocana with bad lungs matched eddie in tts. peopel are just talking about stuff thye dont know anything about.pog would run circles around everybody in 60s in cobbles,hills or climbs. always remember the harder it is,the better for pog. with bigger bikes,pogs recovery becomes even more important.the reason why guy like ocana was bad in classics is due to fact,he had no snap.his anaeribic engine was nothing in comp to pog.

No snap? He was third in the WC beating Merckx.
Pog can’t beat Van Aert but he runs circles round everyone on the cobbles ala Gimondi, Merckx, De Vlaeminck?

 

[canina82]

Pog doesnt need a team for LBL

Red Bull will be dumb enough to control the race

Pogacar will have a team for that. Novak, Sivakov, Wellens, Cosnefroy are good enough to control the race. The problem is the leadout. It's very important to burn everyone before Pogacar's attack. Not just in La Redoute but to put more riders with dead legs in the rolling section.

 

[Coppi-Bartali]

Don't rule out Decathlon taking responsibility. The hype surrounding Seixas is through the roof, and Decathlon is very strong, as seen in Roubaix and other races with Lund and Felix Gall.

 

[canina82]

Don't rule out Decathlon taking responsibility. The hype surrounding Seixas is through the roof, and Decathlon is very strong, as seen in Roubaix and other races with Lund and Felix Gall.

I don't know, I think Seixas will just try to follow UAE and Pogacar. I'm pretty sure he will go over his limit to follow Pogacar just like he did in SB.