Question Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

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What strikes me is this ability to rebound after being on the down side in the last couple of mountain stages.

He looked to be fading in last year's Vuelta as well (losing a minute to Roglic, Valverde and others on Becerril de la Sierra) only to completely erase the field a couple of days later and get his spot on the podium.

Now exactly the same happens in the Tour. There must be something to it.
Bagged blood. There's really nothing else that does that overnight and was the whole deal with Aderlass.
 
I think an insane level of talent is required to be top 5 of the Tour. I also think it's impossible to get there without PEDs.

Where the real crazy comes in for me is that he goes from being dropped/struggling on the climbs in stage 17/18 then drops the craziest ITT performance seen in GTs this century, without ever showing any indication of being a world class ITTer before.

That's not just doping, it breaks all patterns we're somewhat likely to see and it's a big indication that it's not a level playing field.
So what are you suggesting? A motor? Seems unlikely to get away with that given the situation. Or some new product that only he is using on his team? Or it some national thing that only him and Roglic have, and Pog is just better responder / better talent?

Or just the good old BB and microdosing + ketones like everyone else, but he's just recovering better naturally as well, because of age and natural talent?
 
He put 49 seconds into Dumoulin in the first 3k of the climb, while changing bikes as well. With time lost getting off the bike and getting going again, that's easily 65s all things considered in 3k. This is the part of the ITT where he did the most damage.

Bagged blood. There's really nothing else that does that overnight and was the whole deal with Aderlass.
In that case, how likely is it that he'd get popped?
 
So what are you suggesting? A motor? Seems unlikely to get away with that given the situation. Or some new product that only he is using on his team? Or it some national thing that only him and Roglic have, and Pog is just better responder / better talent?

Or just the good old BB and microdosing + ketones like everyone else, but he's just recovering better naturally as well, because of age and natural talent?
It's perfectly possible to be on more or less the same stuff as everyone else and still have a better program, or to take more risks than most, without natural talent being a factor.
 
He put 49 seconds into Dumoulin in the first 3k of the climb, while changing bikes as well. With time lost getting off the bike and getting going again, that's easily 65s all things considered in 3k. This is the part of the ITT where he did the most damage.


In that case, how likely is it that he'd get popped?
I don't know the mechanics of the post-ride / pre-podium time, but if he has time for a shower, his blood is back to normal levels. I'm not sure the vampires work post-stage, either. I think that's a morning routine.

Landis probably got bagged blood, but his bag had leftover T from early season or a non-race period. They got the window wrong and he had traces from his newly injected blood. He was adamant (and still is, I believe) that he didn't use T to recover during the Tour.

So the only thing TP might get busted for is some trace, leftover something, not the blood itself.
 
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It's perfectly possible to be on more or less the same stuff as everyone else and still have a better program, or to take more risks than most, without natural talent being a factor.
Of course it's possible. But not a lot in the history of UAE cycling suggests they have a better program than anyone else with the traditional stuff. And taking more risks? Well, time will tell if he gets popped. But I find it hard to believe that pretty much all riders who decide to dope aren't pushing it to more or less the limit.
 
So what are you suggesting? A motor? Seems unlikely to get away with that given the situation. Or some new product that only he is using on his team? Or it some national thing that only him and Roglic have, and Pog is just better responder / better talent?

Or just the good old BB and microdosing + ketones like everyone else, but he's just recovering better naturally as well, because of age and natural talent?
I don't know

Whatever it is, it's a massive boost from one day to the other. Could be just a blood bag on top of the *** they're already doing to go faster than the rest.

I don't really believe in motor doping, and I wouldn't want to throw that accusation around anyway
 
I don't know

Whatever it is, it's a massive boost from one day to the other. Could be just a blood bag on top of the *** they're already doing to go faster than the rest.

I don't really believe in motor doping, and I wouldn't want to throw that accusation around anyway
If the race committee disassembles his bike like they did Roglic's, it would probably be hard to hide a motor, I would think.
 
Of course it's possible. But not a lot in the history of UAE cycling suggests they have a better program than anyone else with the traditional stuff. And taking more risks? Well, time will tell if he gets popped. But I find it hard to believe that pretty much all riders who decide to dope aren't pushing it to more or less the limit.
I don't think this is true. Yeah, some push it to the limit but some are probably happy just being competitive and minimizing the risk of getting caught.
 
In that case, how likely is it that he'd get popped?
Team will know how many ml of blood will increase values by X, Y, Z. They'll test before and after a transfusion to make sure they're within the bio passport expected values.

From what we know it isn't that hard to keep values within the margins – unless you make a total mess of it then there won't be a case that the UCI can win against you.
 
He put 49 seconds into Dumoulin in the first 3k of the climb, while changing bikes as well. With time lost getting off the bike and getting going again, that's easily 65s all things considered in 3k. This is the part of the ITT where he did the most damage.


In that case, how likely is it that he'd get popped?
No chance, UCI and ASO will never let at young winner get popped.

lol nothing new, maxtin has been around for years at uae, he is a great scout for young riders also, really good at his job.
 
Calling Pogacar a non ITTer is ridiculous, and the kind of thing that makes the Clinic lose credibility. He's a 21 year old who has never finished outside of the top 20 in any TT's he's ridden since turning pro. And who also beat Roglic the last time he rode against him in a TT.
I think this debate about specialist or not is really missing the point. It used to be that a TT specialist was only good at TTs, and really only flat to rolling (i.e. would not have done that well here). Tony Martin would have fit that mold. TP can TT. But this was not a weak field, it was not an easy race, it was not in line with his rate/type of progression, and his performance was a huge outlier compered to others as well as himself. And I just laughed a bit. Nothing to get incensed about ... this is pro sports we are talking about.

BTW - love the photo of WvA and Dumo! That also speaks volumes!
 
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