Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

Page 353 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
Evidence or proof? No. There's none of that. But to act as if there are no "indications" is absurd and so detached from reality that it's bordering on outright delusion.
  • Pogi just had arguably the best season of all time.
  • He sets record after record, whether it's climbs or average speeds, easily beating EPO-era guys like Pantani, Riis, etc.
  • He "peaks" from February through October, something we've mainly seen from "suspicious" riders like Valverde.
  • He excels in all thinkable terrain, there's absolutely no way people wouldn't question it if Froome or Contador had dominated spring classics like Pogi does, or if Cancellara or Boonen had started competing for Grand Tours.
  • And then we can start listing all the suspicious people with whom he is associated:
    • Mauro Gianetti, first and foremost. Famously almost doped himself to death. Was then part of the notorious Saunier-Duval.
    • Matxin Fernandez, Gianetti's partner in crime at Saunier-Duval.
    • Neil Stephens, DS at UAE in 2019 and 2020, was part of Festina, admitted to doping, and later part of Liberty Seguros, which had loads and loads of incidents.
    • Fabrizio Guidi, DS at UAE, had several incidents in his career and was part of both Phonak and Polti.
    • Manuele Mori, DS at UAE, was part of Saunier-Duval under Gianetti and Matxin alongside Bertogliati, and was involved in the Mantova investigation.
    • Marco Marcato, DS at UAE, was part of Vacansoleil, involved with Dr. Ferrari.
    • Aart Vierhouten, DS at UAE in 2022, was part of both Rabobank and Vacansoleil, the latter of which abused TUEs.
    • Andrej Hauptmann, DS at UAE, DNS'ed the Tour in 2000 because of unnaturally high haematocrit values.
    • Rubens Bertogliati, DS at UAE, part of the 2002 Lampre incident, later part of Saunier-Duval under Gianetti and Matxin alongside Mori.
    • Martin Hvastija, Slovenian national team youth coach who worked with Pogi during Pogi's youth, was famously excluded from the Tour in 2004 after he was part of the Blitz investigation in Italy.
  • UAE is generally just run by people who ran one of the absolutely most notorious doping-case-ridden teams in the history of the sport. I won't say that Pogi is guilty by association, but the mere fact that his bosses are Gianetti and Matxin makes it completely valid and legitimate to ask critical questions.

Odds are that I have forgotten other dubious associates.

Look, it's completely legitimate to say: There is no concrete evidence or proof. But to pretend that there are no "indications" is some grade-A BS. If the reasons listed above are not enough to merit the notion of "indications," then there has similarly never been any "indications" for the likes of Padun or Foliforov.
Judging by the results of the recent poll on this sub-forum, the vast majority of participants are certain that the UAE gang and Pogoclown are doing something "illegal". That's not the question, according to the predominant view here. The real question -- which is about 50-50 at this point -- is about the nature of this illegal stuff: is it of purely chemo-biological nature or there is a significant EM assist involved (i.e. the "motor").
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[1] That's just obfuscation. A way for you to say that he is probably doping but you don't call it doping you call it "grey zone" that might be legal (only it's actually doping as it was explained to you). What if he is genetically gifted? Every top cyclist is genetically gifted they are all outliers. Training methods? His training protocol is rather simple, he has gone over it many times (unless he lied of course). His coach has trained other athletes that have gone to other teams, it's not rocket science or anything top secret, it's exercise physiology. What's next? Ah yes the FAD of the month, increase carbs consumption, training the gut and so on. Except that carbs do nothing for power outputs they only alleviate the effects of fatigue.
[2] I've answered your question, you keep ignoring the answer. Not my problem. I don't need to know what he takes and how he takes it to know that his results are illegally enchanced. I've told you before, I don't need a blood test to know that Superman is not human. There is nothing in the scientific literature to explain his performance. And I've provided examples from the scientific literature that show (and explain) that the anti-doping tests can be circumvented.
[3] It wasn't even a technicality they just dismissed the allegation claiming that it misrepresented her blood values but there was no explanation as to how it did so. It's not the first time UKAD did this of course, they pretty much did something similar with Wiggins, Froome and Farah.
You already know how I view the term 'clean'. If it's not banned then riders will use it which means that they're still considered clean in the eyes of the rules and that is what ultimately matters. You're trying to sweep 'genetic' factor under rug by saying that everyone is genetically gifted but the fact of the matter is that there is levels to it, some riders are more genetically gifted than others. Take Messi for example, nobody thought there would be anyone on the level of Pele and Maradona but then Messi emerged. He's genetically gifted and so are the players around him but he is genetically gifted on a higher level. World records are being broken across multiple sports, are you gonna say thats because of illegal/banned substances or that sports science in regards to training, diet and fueling has evolved?

Now you're moving the goalposts again, first you never mentioned that Paula Radcliffe wasn't found guilty so I corrected you and you replied that it was because of a technicality and now you're saying that there was no technicality.

Lastly, this is the 3rd time I ask you to show me the 'Le Redoute analysis' that you said I should read, lets see it.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.parliament.uk/globalassets/documents/commons-committees/culture-media-and-sport/WADAs-athlete-doping-prevalence-survey.pdf
The passport software did not flag any subjects as being suspicious of doping whilst they were receiving rhEPO. We conclude that it is possible for athletes to use rhEPO without eliciting abnormal changes in the blood variables currently monitored by the Athlete Blood Passport.
The conclusion is invalid. The problem is the dedicated Athlete Blood Passport software - not the passport. I presume Ashenden or someone else looked into that since February 2020?
 
whereas still there is no test to detect autologous blood doping and people rely on the flawed blood passport.
The passport isn't flawed just how it is being used. e.g. software. Cyclists have been caught for autologous doping. That's how Cobo (a Gianetti client) was snared, albeit 8 years after the event. And there were others if you do a quick search.
 
Jul 19, 2024
95
224
580
The conclusion is invalid. The problem is the dedicated Athlete Blood Passport software - not the passport. I presume Ashenden or someone else looked into that since February 2020?
Did they? I don't follow doping busts closely these days but since covid I can't remember having heard of anyone being caught due to blood passport violations certainly not to the extent revealed in the 2017 anonymous study that I also linked where at least 1/5 of the atlhetes asked anonymously admitted to doping. And isn't the software what flags up variations to be then examined by the experts? If the software doesn't flag them then they will go unnoticed. There are thousands of athletes in the database this is how they are monitored.
 
Did they? I don't follow doping busts closely these days but since covid I can't remember having heard of anyone being caught due to blood passport violations certainly not to the extent revealed in the 2017 anonymous study that I also linked where at least 1/5 of the atlhetes asked anonymously admitted to doping. And isn't the software what flags up variations to be then examined by the experts? If the software doesn't flag them then they will go unnoticed. There are thousands of athletes in the database this is how they are monitored.
Software isn't perfect. It relies on assumptions and parameters - and obviously needs work by the conclusions of Ashenden's study when it failed to detect autologous doping. Not sure what these "experts" validate.

I would think its up to the UCI to get to the bottom of any problem with the software as that undermines the efficacy of anti doping controls. Sadly they may choose not to - that is the lack of motivation I mentioned. A step change since Covid has been mentioned in the Clinic but nobody has explained why. Even in the 2020 Giro the climbing speeds were very high.

But February 2020 (Ashenden's study) is 5 years ago, why are they dragging their feet? Most software receives upgrades. Why hasn't the UCI upgraded their software to ensure greater accuracy? Is it money? Then tell us?
 
Jul 19, 2024
95
224
580
Software isn't perfect. It relies on assumptions and parameters - and obviously needs work by the conclusions of Ashenden's study when it failed to detect autologous doping. Not sure what these "experts" validate.

I would think its up to the UCI to get to the bottom of any problem with the software as that undermines the efficacy of anti doping controls. Sadly they may choose not to - that is the lack of motivation I mentioned. A step change since Covid has been mentioned in the Clinic but nobody has explained why. Even in the 2020 Giro the climbing speeds were very high.

But February 2020 (Ashenden's study) is 5 years ago, why are they dragging their feet? Most software receives upgrades. Why hasn't the UCI upgraded their software to ensure greater accuracy? Is it money? Then tell us?
The cynical answer would be that the passport, the X-Ray machines the strict testing protocols are convenient smokescreens. They can work, but they have to be implemented first. The UCI claims they are being implemented but are there?

Edit: https://www.cyclingnews.com/features/biological-passport-have-dopers-found-ways-to-beat-it/
Just came across it. The possibility to use altitude training to mask blood value fluctuations and beat the APB is intriguing particularly as it seems that altitude training has significantly increased lately (it may be cause helps the gut absorb more carbs though you never know :p). The science has become very complex and it's very likely that if you have the money you can beat ithe tests (assuming they are adminestered).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: veganrob and E_F_
What. You cant compare the training regime of 30 years to today. 30 years ago in many sports you weren't even allowed to have a drink during a training session because you were considered weak. Athletes are much better prepared than 30 years ago, whether it is specific training, equipment, rest, nutrition, the use of monitoring devices to test training loads etc,etc, etc. We are no longer living in the Stone Age. Of course some athletes in all sports continue to take banned substances or operate in the grey zone, but the fact is that in every endurance sport times are quicker and will continue to get quicker. I can't accept the argument that there should never be advancements in aspects of life or otherwise, we would never be communicatring over the internet.
Wait, 30 years ago I wasn't supposed to be drinking during workouts and races? I think you might be thinking more like 50-60 years ago. I'm not debating there have been improvements, but it's not like 30 years ago was the dark ages.

Here's an interesting thought exercise about improvement and an endurance sport - you stated "but the fact is that in every endurance sport times are quicker and will continue to get quicker". Do they ever stop getting quicker?
 
  • Like
  • Haha
Reactions: veganrob and E_F_
Wait, 30 years ago I wasn't supposed to be drinking during workouts and races? I think you might be thinking more like 50-60 years ago. I'm not debating there have been improvements, but it's not like 30 years ago was the dark ages.

Here's an interesting thought exercise about improvement and an endurance sport - you stated "but the fact is that in every endurance sport times are quicker and will continue to get quicker". Do they ever stop getting quicker?

It will come a time when the athlete reaches their capacity in endurance sports. Though there may still be substantial improvements in skills based sports.
 
I read some posts and I must ask, if Gianetti/Matxin are the reason why Pogacar is so good, why UAE/Lampre were so dogs#it before Pogacar? UAE helped Pogacar but I can say with all certainty that UAE is what it is thanks to Pogacar. They just won 12 races in 2018, they were really bad!
 
  • Like
Reactions: snipeheem
Software isn't perfect. It relies on assumptions and parameters - and obviously needs work by the conclusions of Ashenden's study when it failed to detect autologous doping. Not sure what these "experts" validate.

I would think its up to the UCI to get to the bottom of any problem with the software as that undermines the efficacy of anti doping controls. Sadly they may choose not to - that is the lack of motivation I mentioned. A step change since Covid has been mentioned in the Clinic but nobody has explained why. Even in the 2020 Giro the climbing speeds were very high.

But February 2020 (Ashenden's study) is 5 years ago, why are they dragging their feet? Most software receives upgrades. Why hasn't the UCI upgraded their software to ensure greater accuracy? Is it money? Then tell us?
This might be a bit off topic, but didn't Ashenden quit working with the passport? I seem to recall he was quite frustrated by something that was going on
 
  • Like
Reactions: veganrob and E_F_
Jul 19, 2024
95
224
580
What. You cant compare the training regime of 30 years to today. 30 years ago in many sports you weren't even allowed to have a drink during a training session because you were considered weak. Athletes are much better prepared than 30 years ago, whether it is specific training, equipment, rest, nutrition, the use of monitoring devices to test training loads etc,etc, etc. We are no longer living in the Stone Age. Of course some athletes in all sports continue to take banned substances or operate in the grey zone, but the fact is that in every endurance sport times are quicker and will continue to get quicker. I can't accept the argument that there should never be advancements in aspects of life or otherwise, we would never be communicatring over the internet.
Of course you can. Power meters became available in the early-mid 90s, Lance was training with power and lactate threshold values. Heart rate based training zones were established in the late 70s and early mid 80s. Zone 2 training (well something similar in the ball park because it's not really Zone 2 unless below a certain lactate concentration) was introduced in mid 80s only it was called the Maffetone method. Athletes were doing altitude camps in Spain and living in altitude, Lance for example, lived in Girona.
Every change since then has been a refinement, a marginal gain so to speak or just a re-marketing and popularization of an existing idea.
I don't think you have a full picture of how athletes were training in the 00s, particularly athletes with resources like Armstrong or even Ullrich and Pantani. As for track and field, the interesting question would be why there are so many 20+ yr records still standing in throws and sprints (particularly women's). Is it because training hasn't evolved? Humans have become slower/less powerful? Or blood doping (a lot harder to detect than hormones) is not effective in those disciplines? Who knows?
 
I do not quite understand your analysis here. Say 600W would be enough for a steady velocity of v and 900W for 1.5v. Then the increase of KE happens during the time 900W is being produced but 1.5v is not quite reached (during this time dv/dt >0). Once the forces are balanced again he moves with constant 1.5v and no acceleration happens.
A little extension of that analysis while you are refreshing the laws of classical dynamics in your memory. What we described was -- as was explicitly stated -- a much simplified model good for obtaining ballpark figures. In the Muur de Huy reality, the acceleration phase probably lasted a bit longer and the acceleration itself was not constant, tapering off towards the end of the acceleration phase. What was (approximately) constant is the e-assist power likely initiated by that under-brake-hood button press. That power likely stayed approximately constants almost to the finish, possibly tapering off somewhat due to the controller's heat management function (but, given cool and rainy weather, that effect probably was not very pronounced). So the real Pogo+bike power output profile likely looked something like the following.

Before the acceleration phase, we have around 600W (possibly a bit less since overall that was not a fastest Muur climb). Then assist goes on and pushes the total power to something like 1100-1200W (remember that initial 1140W in the simplified calculation) where it stays throughout the whole acceleration phase. Pogo himself possibly adds an extra 100 almost instinctively (this is the "go" moment, after all). As we know, the result of this almost constant system power output is the acceleration behaving as a decreasing function of time (we could even write a differential equation to obtain that dependence, if we felt like it). Qualitatively, the reason for that decrease is that the increasing speed makes more of the total power go into work production against gravity (and air resistance) or, equivalently, into potential energy increase. So less is left to contribute to the kinetic energy gain (aka acceleration).

After the acceleration phase is over, the Pogo+bike system settles into constant 900W (or maybe even a bit less) power output mode, simply to make sure that the speed up the Muur does not go into some comical 40+ km/h territory. But, with power assist activated, it likely keeps pumping that 500-600W into the road (or, rather, into potential energy). So Pogo himself can ease into a pleasant 300W. That readily explains his easy looking nose breathing finish noticed by everyone.
Math and Electrical Engineering here btw.
That's some solid background. Much better than philosophy. :) You should have no difficulties following these calculations and their meaning.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Notarobot
I do not quite understand your analysis here. Say 600W would be enough for a steady velocity of v and 900W for 1.5v. Then the increase of KE happens during the time 900W is being produced but 1.5v is not quite reached (during this time dv/dt >0). Once the forces are balanced again he moves with constant 1.5v and no acceleration happens.
Math and Electrical Engineering here btw.
Was feeling a bit lazy on Friday afternoon and decided to write that differential equation mentioned before and see what its solution gives, just for kicks. For simplicity, we are going to neglect air and rolling resistance on a steep climb like Muur de Huy. Later, these terms can be included as well if anybody feels like it. Let P_0 be the power right before Pogo+bike system acceleration and let P_max be the total power during the acceleration phase. The general differential equation of the rider+bike motion stating that the total power is equal to the time derivative of the total (potential + kinetic) energy then reads:
mg*sin(a)*v + mv*v'=P,
where sin(a) is the sine of the inclination angle of the given climb, v' is the acceleration, and P is the total power. If the speed is constant, the second term is zero, and we can find the steady speed on the climb given the power. So let us assume 600W constant before the attack and let us use the gradient of 14% -- that is the typical on the slopes on the Muur where the attack took place. Allowing some token amount (say, 50W) for air and rolling resistance and assuming 72kg rider+bike mass, we obtain the steady speed of 5.6 m/s (20.2 km/h) that makes perfect sense.

Now let us consider the acceleration phase. We need to integrate the ODE above from time 0 (when acceleration begins) to the time when it ends. The initial speed is 5.6 m/s, and we assume the final one to be 50% more, i.e. 8.4 m/s or 30.3 km/h. We can use, for example, the variable separation technique to solve that ODE. The solution with the above boundary conditions is as follows.
T=(1/(g*sin(a)))(b*ln((b-v_0)/(b-v))-(v-v_0)),
where T is the total duration of the acceleration phase, v is the final speed, and b =P/(mg*sin(a)), P being the total power.
We can now, assuming v=1.5v_0=8.4 m/s, plug various values of P and calculate the value of T -- how long the acceleration to the final speed lasted.

Recalling that the air resistance is going to grow about three times when the speed increases by 50%, we assume that the extra power required to overcome it at the final speed to be equal to 150W. For the duration of the acceleration phase itself, that power grew from 50 to 150W, so we will assume an average of extra 100W, for simplicity. So let us say Pogo helped himself to 500W worth of assist and added 100W of his own (remember that he looked somewhat labored in the beginning of his attack). Pushing 700W seated is already no small task as we know. So we plug P=700+500-100=1100W for useful total power and obtain T=3.7 s, so pretty quick initial "burst" as we saw. To maintain that final speed, the total power of 550*1.5+150=975W is needed, so Pogo himself would be responsible for 975-500=475W which is not that bad and would further decrease toward the finish as the slope flattens. Thus his nose breathing weak celebration everyone witnessed.
 
  • Love
  • Like
Reactions: noob and Cookster15
If you believe Pogacar is taking banned substances i.e doping, then the burden of proof lies on you. You cannot accuse Pogacar and then go on to demand people to prove his innocence, thats not how it works.
I know and there is no proof. There was also no proof with Armstrong, Froome mysterious acceleration on the Ventoux or Gilbert 2011. I'm just saying that I believe that the most surreal cycling performances in history under the management of the dirtiest management in cycling history are, uh, suspicious . Since cycling journalists are not asking questions, other people have to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Stablo and Ripper
Don't know if this has been posted before, pardon if it has, but thought this was worth reading: https://escapecollective.com/the-curious-case-of-mauro-gianettis-disappearing-doping-incident/

Much of it behind a paywall. I figured I'd support independent cycling journalism and give them $11 for a month. Looks like a promising bit of content at Escape Collective. Maybe not news to many or all of ya, but I'd never heard of 'em.
Just in case anyone would be interested in the first reactions:

Gianetti editing his own wikipedia page to remove doping incidents.
 
  • Like
Reactions: red_flanders
I know and there is no proof. There was also no proof with Armstrong, Froome mysterious acceleration on the Ventoux or Gilbert 2011. I'm just saying that I believe that the most surreal cycling performances in history under the management of the dirtiest management in cycling history are, uh, suspicious . Since cycling journalists are not asking questions, other people have to.
Even at the time when there was no proof of Armstrong, there were atleast suspicions/allegations of what he was taking, which was EPO amongst other things. When I ask the people that are hell-bent on Pogacar taking banned/illegal substances, they have no clue or idea what he could be taking.
 
  • Like
Reactions: snipeheem
Even at the time when there was no proof of Armstrong, there were atleast suspicions/allegations of what he was taking, which was EPO amongst other things. When I ask the people that are hell-bent on Pogacar taking banned/illegal substances, they have no clue or idea what he could be taking.
That's correct. We don't know. We only know about the history of Saunier Duval. There are some differences though. Armstrong was a very controversial figure many people wanted to take down. There were also a lot of people involved.
Lessons have been learned since Armstrong. Sky was more discrete and UAE has taken it to another level. Everyone in that team has a shady history. You won't find an Emma O'Reilly On top of that: cycling journalism is dead. Nobody wants to experience what Walsh and Kimmage had to go through.

There are many suspicions around Pogacar. Allegations? No. You could say the same about Indurain or Gilbert 2011. Even Cancellara's antics in RvV and PR required an amateuristic Youtube video.
 
Even at the time when there was no proof of Armstrong, there were atleast suspicions/allegations of what he was taking, which was EPO amongst other things. When I ask the people that are hell-bent on Pogacar taking banned/illegal substances, they have no clue or idea what he could be taking.
People in this thread have speculated that he uses blood bags, microdoses EPO and uses a motor.
 
  • Like
Reactions: yaco