Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Riders ride the same races for different reasons. They did that back then as well.

He has had bad days, as been stated. Other great riders have been beaten him a few times. Right now he is at his very peak. It is not strange that a rider of his talent is winning races. He is on top of his game at the moment and winning a lot of big races.

Your claim is also wrong. He was good as a junior, progressed in U23s and won the biggest race. Already did well in pro races, before going pro were he started to win early on.

Check his seasons 2015-2017. Nothing special. He won the Giro di Lunigiana in 2016 against a bunch of nobodies. He won the 'biggest race' (without a single stage win) after he signed for Gianetti, comparable to Torres who set a record on the Finestre as an 18-year old... after he signed for Gianetti.
Do you want to see the results of talented young riders? Check Evenepoel, Seixas and Van der Poel.

 

[Salvarani]

Check his seasons 2015-2017. Nothing special. He won the Giro di Lunigiana in 2016 against a bunch of nobodies. He won the 'biggest race' (without a single stage win) after he signed for Gianetti, comparable to Torres who set a record on the Finestre as an 18-year old... after he signed for Gianetti.
Do you want to see the results of talented young riders? Check Evenepoel, Seixas and Van der Poel.

You also have to consider he came from a small nation with not the same resources. Humble beginnings and being very young.. He was still very good. Got better from racing better and harder races against tougher competition, than what he had experienced in the past. He made good results is the point and progressed. That is what matters.

And everyones journey is different.

 

[SHAD0W93]

View: https://youtu.be/c7EYFjkXpYc?si=ARcMRtx0suaBrsma

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

You also have to consider he came from a small nation with not the same resources. Humble beginnings and being very young.. He was still very good. Got better from racing better and harder races against tougher competition, than what he had experienced in the past. He made good results is the point and progressed. That is what matters.

And everyones journey is different.

I didn't know the size of a nation is relevant.
Was he very good?
He was beaten by his compatriot Primozic in 2015-2016.
Generational talent

 

[Salvarani]

I didn't know the size of a nation is relevant.
Was he very good?
He was beaten by his compatriot Primozic in 2015-2016.
Generational talent

Well, I am glad that I can educate you on it... as it does matter quite a bit. What the scene may have been for local cycling clubs and the culture for it when Pog was growing up. Just being able to get good equipment and afford it. How good coaches may have been. It is many factors here and I think it was quite different being a young kid being interested in cycling in Slovenia 10-15 years ago, rather than being a young kid in one of the bigger countries with a rich history in the sport.

So he should have just quit because he lost a race?

He also did beat him in the ITT in 2016 and had plenty more good result as a rider that season. It is still very early to know what the future may be at this stage.

Arguing that you could forecast or know what the ceiling is for a rider at that tender age, with his humble background, is impossible to do.

Infact, considering his background and where he came from... that he was making the results he did was a sign of the potential that he had. Against better teams and nations with a lot more depth to their talent-pool and resources.

It shouldnt be used in the way you are making it out to be. Quite the opposite actually.

It was signs of great potential and that he took great strides being exposed to harder/tougher races. Better training and equipment. It only speaks to the talent that was there.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

In 2016, 3 Slovenians finished in the top 10 of the WC RR. Pogacar finished 50th.
In the National Championship, he finished 6th, 2min50s behind well known Slovenian powerhouse ČEMAŽAR Nik.
In Course de la Paix, he finished over five minutes behind Primozic.
In Trofeo comune di Vertova Memorial Pietro Merelli, Pogacar finished 56th in the race that was won by... Slovenian JERMAN Žiga

I guess his fellow Slovenians identified as members from an important cycling nation that year.

 

[Ripper]

There are lots of indicators that Pogacar will need to apply maximum pressure in first @9 days, Putting pressure on himself and team, immediately.
His team will play a significant role, his typical tactics will be to overheat the race early and throughout, likely burning and off weaker teams within first few days. His guaranteed dominance is not a given.
But realistically only a couple of teams are suited to race him for all 3 weeks.
I feel bad that historic perspective is not part of most of the conversation.
We all could be witnessing history.. And notably some historic figures effected most like LeMond, Hilnaut, Merckx, Armstrong are all complimentary and exciting about possible new records.

Oh please, we are always witnessing 'history', so to speak. Or are you saying we should all feel special because we get to see athletes perform?

 

[Ripper]

In 2016, 3 Slovenians finished in the top 10 of the WC RR. Pogacar finished 50th.
In the National Championship, he finished 6th, 2min50s behind well known Slovenian powerhouse ČEMAŽAR Nik.
In Course de la Paix, he finished over five minutes behind Primozic.
In Trofeo comune di Vertova Memorial Pietro Merelli, Pogacar finished 56th in the race that was won by... Slovenian JERMAN Žiga

I guess his fellow Slovenians identified as members from an important cycling nation that year.

He was a baby then. So the first developmental milestone to become a world beater was finishing puberty. The second one was learning to do intervals.

Lord help the world when he discovers Tabata or Billat intervals

 

[Cookster15]

In 2016, 3 Slovenians finished in the top 10 of the WC RR. Pogacar finished 50th.
In the National Championship, he finished 6th, 2min50s behind well known Slovenian powerhouse ČEMAŽAR Nik.
In Course de la Paix, he finished over five minutes behind Primozic.
In Trofeo comune di Vertova Memorial Pietro Merelli, Pogacar finished 56th in the race that was won by... Slovenian JERMAN Žiga

I guess his fellow Slovenians identified as members from an important cycling nation that year.

You can't predict future performance at junior level and the 2016 Junior WC RR is a good example why. Look at who was in that race. From a long list I see McKnulty, and Harry Sweeney. The rest are largely unknowns today.

World Championships MJ - Road Race 2016 One day race results

World Championships MJ - Road Race 2016 was won by Jakob Egholm before Niklas Märkl and Reto Müller.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[Gratemans]

There was no oxygen vector doping during Merckx's era either - so how did he dominate? Maybe he was simply more talented? It certainly wasn't motors.

Not sure why specialization and participation outside of Western Europe is relevant. Both can lift the overall level of the peloton (specialization to a greater extent) but these factors don't necessarily level the playing field between more and less talented* individuals.

Participation outside of Western Europe has been the case since Lemond - over 30 years. Pogacar won the Tour before his 22nd birthday - 2nd youngest ever. The year before Pogacar won ToC on Mt Baldy as a virtual unknown as a 20 year old - it was the first time I'd heard of him.

*As for talent, I have read opinions posted in The Clinic who say response to doping is a talent. And these people are not Pogacar fans. Ultimately the entire reason for debate here is argument over a level playing field. There are teams other than UAE who are potentially losing a lot of money if UAE have an unfair advantage with Pogacar. So the doping omerta doesn't hold. But we are not going to solve their problem here.

But every day I don't read about motor doping conspiracies is a good day

Ultimately, doesn't the entirety of this corner of the forum come down to one thing and one thing only? What you choose to believe.
There's no hard evidence either way.

 

[Unchained]

Oh please, we are always witnessing 'history', so to speak. Or are you saying we should all feel special because we get to see athletes perform?

What I attempted to say.. If Pogacar starts, ends his career, cruising through drug free, goes into retirement, and dies without the scandal so many are implying ( zero evidence thus far..) This could be historic..
If his longevity is anything like his racing, he will live to 100,150 years old!!
And what makes it " feel special " is you see it as it happens instead of through old videos or reading about it years from now. I am puzzled why people post and watch racing when they hate it, hate the people doing it!!

 

[Red Rick]

There was no oxygen vector doping during Merckx's era either - so how did he dominate? Maybe he was simply more talented? It certainly wasn't motors.

Domination is a lot easier when noone even really knows how to train properly, a large proportion of the field is basically semi professional, and the talent pool is like 5 countries deep at best. The sport was less advanced and less diverse, with overall speeds being lower making drafting a lesser benefit in general.

There's probably several dozen reasons we should not expect this level of dominance in a level playing field, so "I guess it was about time someone was this much more talented" doesn't quite cut it.

 

[Gratemans]

I am puzzled why people post and watch racing when they hate it, hate the people doing it!!

And I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. Who is hating? Not a lot of folks here are as far as I can tell.
Ever heard of cognitive dissonance? One can be skeptical regarding wether the athletes they're watching are clean, yet at the same time enjoy the races, the tactical plays, the emotions, the blunders, the drama.

 

[Unchained]

And I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. Who is hating? Not a lot of folks here are as far as I can tell.
Ever heard of cognitive dissonance? One can be skeptical regarding wether the athletes they're watching are clean, yet at the same time enjoy the races, the tactical plays, the emotions, the blunders, the drama.

I am thinking that you are kidding or worse!! People write each day about Pogacar being dirty, doped using a motor, his mega money oil team is paying off from top to bottom to conceal controversy. Many people writing multiple times per week something to the effect.. Can't watch because it's obvious that Pogacar is gassed to the gills and instead of being caught he celebrates undeserved dirty victories!!
Get serious.. So a repeating narrative is that he is cheating and that's were creativity meets conspiracy as people type in unsubstantiated mockery about motors, drugs of old, new ,undetectable or popular, drugs are detected, ignored or paid to look away.. Your " not a bunch of hate here for Pogacar" is either disingenuous or generated by AI

 

[peterfin]

And I'm puzzled by your puzzlement. Who is hating? Not a lot of folks here are as far as I can tell.
Ever heard of cognitive dissonance? One can be skeptical regarding wether the athletes they're watching are clean, yet at the same time enjoy the races, the tactical plays, the emotions, the blunders, the drama.

It's a heroic, dramatic sport that people love, not hate. For many - me included - it's the best sport of all. Ultimately people do want to know if the drama is 'real'. Those who come her have a gut feeling it's not or even an understanding that it simply cannot be real. The clinic is basically the spot to write about our frustration. Frustration for the love of a sport that deserves to be real.

 

[Unchained]

Domination is a lot easier when noone even really knows how to train properly, a large proportion of the field is basically semi professional, and the talent pool is like 5 countries deep at best. The sport was less advanced and less diverse, with overall speeds being lower making drafting a lesser benefit in general.

There's probably several dozen reasons we should not expect this level of dominance in a level playing field, so "I guess it was about time someone was this much more talented" doesn't quite cut it.

Greg LeMond wrote or in an interview talked about people and pianos. Goes something like this: in all the world, there are probably thousands of people who have a genetic destiny for absolute greatest playing the musical instrument, but none or only a couple will ever be exposed to a piano. So in bike racing's first hundred years, very very limited population was exposed to racing bikes.. And now with expanded exposure, the larger numbers logically predict more people exposed, more probability of someone with great potential being discovered.
I personally have seen some amazing things, some involving race in racing in the United States.. I have seen African Americans climb on bicycles and in dramatic short time frame rise to top levels in American bike racing.. In my lifetime seen NFL completely transform because of opening the parameters of the talent pool..NBA and MLB was happening earlier.. Now in hockey seeing players that look different than for most of the history of the sport.
Don't know if start list and nationality, race data are available for bike racing in 40s,50s,60s,ect but if I guessed, when Eddy Merckx was breaking and making records wasn't too many Slovenians racing with him..
Funny using Merckx as a reference in modern bike racing, the equipment he used, diet, training, medicine, recovery , clothing, recon work ,yearly schedule would be considered completely wrong, dumb by modern methodology

 

[Gratemans]

Get serious.

Get serious yourself. Don't make him out to be some sort of victim. He's praised across the professional cycling world pretty much unanimously.
But a lot of fans solely focus on any criticism their hero receives. Same in the Roglic, Jonas or Remco threads: it's like they all think the world is out to get their hero.
And I was talking about this forum btw. Not that cesspool twitter. (Where _everybody_ gets dumped on by *** internet rando's. Not just Pog.)

We're in the clinic. People _will_ be sceptical and ask questions. That doesn't constitute "hate" in any way.

 

[Unchained]

Get serious yourself. Don't make him out to be some sort of victim. He's praised across the professional cycling world pretty much unanimously.
But a lot of fans solely focus on any criticism their hero receives. Same in the Roglic, Jonas or Remco threads: it's like they all think the world is out to get their hero.
And I was talking about this forum btw. Not that cesspool twitter. (Where _everybody_ gets dumped on by *** internet rando's. Not just Pog.)

We're in the clinic. People _will_ be sceptical and ask questions. That doesn't constitute "hate" in any way.

So you are saying that when people type here,over and over, and over again that Pogacar is doping and using hidden illegal motors, that is universal, unanimous praise?
Where is saying someone is too good to be true, taking drugs to cheat a form of praise?
And if questions are asked as you are putting forth, here I will give reasonable, catch all ,answers to the two most repeated requests
1. Pogacar since racing as a professional since 2017, has never tested positive for any banned substance, he has never had issues with missed tests both in and out of competition. And before turning pro ,Pogacar never had any abnormal drug tests.
2 . throughout Pogacar racing as an amateur or professional has ever been relegated for using illegal equipment, to include electric motors..
broad time sensitive, wide ranging answers, that are going back to the beginning and up to the minute.
So why would anyone not include a decade plus of testing, with zero negative outcomes as part of any smearing, silly, unfounded, unfortunate questions about either form of cheating..
No rational person would say with any confidence or conviction that they are sure Pogacar is cheating, the data just doesn't support it..
Maybe unicorn racing has a forum. Tinfoil helmets.

 

[Red Rick]

Greg LeMond wrote or in an interview talked about people and pianos. Goes something like this: in all the world, there are probably thousands of people who have a genetic destiny for absolute greatest playing the musical instrument, but none or only a couple will ever be exposed to a piano. So in bike racing's first hundred years, very very limited population was exposed to racing bikes.. And now with expanded exposure, the larger numbers logically predict more people exposed, more probability of someone with great potential being discovered.
I personally have seen some amazing things, some involving race in racing in the United States.. I have seen African Americans climb on bicycles and in dramatic short time frame rise to top levels in American bike racing.. In my lifetime seen NFL completely transform because of opening the parameters of the talent pool..NBA and MLB was happening earlier.. Now in hockey seeing players that look different than for most of the history of the sport.
Don't know if start list and nationality, race data are available for bike racing in 40s,50s,60s,ect but if I guessed, when Eddy Merckx was breaking and making records wasn't too many Slovenians racing with him..
Funny using Merckx as a reference in modern bike racing, the equipment he used, diet, training, medicine, recovery , clothing, recon work ,yearly schedule would be considered completely wrong, dumb by modern methodology

The other sports you're referencing are a lot more multifactorial than cycling, which is basically pure physiology and can be much more quantified than other sports. Lionel Messi or Novak Djokovic may not even be in the top 0.1 %ile for any isolated physiological trait. Yet because they dominate we should find it normal that Pogacar dominates by basically 5% or more? That doesn't make sense.

A bigger talent pool doesn't mean outliers should be bigger from the other top professionals. It means the overall level should be higher.

And if the idea is "he's just more talented" he would show it at an early age. Which he didn't. He was a good junior, but nothing to suggest he would go on to do as he did. And if we have to go to anecdotes of lapping u12 races we're basically in fantasyland anyway.

 

[Red Rick]

But I do love the idea that a sport which has seen an arms race of oxygen vector and other doping talent has finally invented or discovered. Charles Darwin would approve I guess.

 

[Gratemans]

So you are saying that when people type here,over and over, and over again that Pogacar is doping and using hidden illegal motors, that is universal, unanimous praise?
Where is saying someone is too good to be true, taking drugs to cheat a form of praise?
And if questions are asked as you are putting forth, here I will give r

First of all, you do realise this is the clinic? Riders are questioned in here all the time. Not just Tadej. Stop with the victimization already and maybe read other threads in here as well instead of focussing on this one. It's not like people aren't sceptical of Jonas, Remco or whoever else either.

1. Pogacar since racing as a professional since 2017, has never tested positive for any banned substance, he has never had issues with missed tests both in and out of competition. And before turning pro ,Pogacar never had any abnormal drug tests.
2 . throughout Pogacar racing as an amateur or professional has ever been relegated for using illegal equipment, to include electric motors..
broad time sensitive, wide ranging answers, that are going back to the beginning and up to the minute.
So why would anyone not include a decade plus of testing, with zero negative outcomes as part of any smearing, silly, unfounded, unfortunate questions about either form of cheating..
No rational person would say with any confidence or conviction that they are sure Pogacar is cheating, the data just doesn't support it..
Maybe unicorn racing has a forum. Tinfoil helmets.

Who's actually joking now here.. I know you're not, but this actually makes me ask: are you new to cycling?
Because you're just literally quoting the Armstrong defense here from back in the day.

I have no hate for anybody. But I do think a lot of riders are on some kind of juice. You might believe that's not the case, and that's perfectly fine. But clicking the clinic section (which is about doping) and getting all indignent at people questioning your hero just seems kind of pointless.

I'd also like to re-iterate my general view on the subject matter:

Ultimately, doesn't the entirety of this corner of the forum come down to one thing and one thing only? What you choose to believe.
There's no hard evidence either way.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Exactly, and thats the type of rider he is.

So your position is now "He's the second coming, deal with it!!!" rather than "completely normal phenomenon, nothing to see here".

 

[Stablo]

Exactly, and thats the type of rider he is.

No he isn't and will never be. Monsta is where he is only because of Gianetti&Co and UAE. Last two seasons the cheating has taken up rounds we have never witnessed before. He will always have an asterisks behind his achievements and the downfall might even come while he is still active, if the dictatorship behind the team get's bored or in some other troubles.

Edit. And to clarify even without Gianetti etc. he would still have a decent career, but it would never be even in the same planet that what he is now doing. Period.

 

[Salvarani]

So your position is now "He's the second coming, deal with it!!!" rather than "completely normal phenomenon, nothing to see here".

Thats is not what I have said, nor what I responded to.

A rider winning monuments and GTs... he is not the first in history to do that. It is not impossible.

 

[Salvarani]

Greg LeMond wrote or in an interview talked about people and pianos. Goes something like this: in all the world, there are probably thousands of people who have a genetic destiny for absolute greatest playing the musical instrument, but none or only a couple will ever be exposed to a piano. So in bike racing's first hundred years, very very limited population was exposed to racing bikes.. And now with expanded exposure, the larger numbers logically predict more people exposed, more probability of someone with great potential being discovered.
I personally have seen some amazing things, some involving race in racing in the United States.. I have seen African Americans climb on bicycles and in dramatic short time frame rise to top levels in American bike racing.. In my lifetime seen NFL completely transform because of opening the parameters of the talent pool..NBA and MLB was happening earlier.. Now in hockey seeing players that look different than for most of the history of the sport.
Don't know if start list and nationality, race data are available for bike racing in 40s,50s,60s,ect but if I guessed, when Eddy Merckx was breaking and making records wasn't too many Slovenians racing with him..
Funny using Merckx as a reference in modern bike racing, the equipment he used, diet, training, medicine, recovery , clothing, recon work ,yearly schedule would be considered completely wrong, dumb by modern methodology

Valid points were made and great assessment on what development does over time around the world.