Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[pelotonIQ]

A lot of us on here don't believe that motors are being used. I personally think Gianetti has found a new form of EPO, that's less detectable than CERA, his other find.

There has been a lot of motor-doping talk on here, daily.

 

[AlpRaid]

Yeah, Wellens was almost as fast as noted mountain goats Bruno Armirail, Victor Campenaerts, and Tobias Foss. That's a red flag if ever I saw one.

right you are, since tobias, bruno and victor have all suddenly started climbing mountains every day throughout the dauphine and tdf. and they have all won a stage (while working for a team leader), as well as their national road championships by going on long solo raids. lol.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Don't forget the WC too, oh no, what do we do? wether one believes he dopes or not, just enjoy the entertainment.

What entertainment? The same guy winning all the time, nearly effortless isn't exactily entertaining for me.

 

[bah]

No, I think he's quite pleasant overall. Just needs to learn a few lessons, which is difficult when you have a massive fanbase treating you like a god, and a team that's unlikely to give you much pushback, either.

I have my doubts. I feel he showed his true colours in the 2022 Tour of Flanders when he threw a hissy fit and has basically been managing media expectations after that. Perhaps I'm being harsh though and judging him in a weak moment; nevertheless I don't think he's exactly the chilled out angelic "just for fun" person he's made out to be.

 

[DONCA]

Yes I thought so too, didn't want to say as it seemed too conspiratorial but as you've mentioned it.

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Rozman hired his friend Žiga Jerman at Ineos I believe, who was at FDJ when Schmidt was involved there, now he's at UAE. Pogacar's best mate from his teen years apparently, the Ljubljana days.

Very sordid stuff, a lot of these Slovenian's seem to be finding second lives as Masseurs!

To be fair to Arensman, nothing I've seen suggests him to be dodgy (other than the team), I think Rozman is more an inner circle guy, with the G's and Wiggo's of the world.

There are several connections between Rozman and UAE.

Pogi's best mate Ziga Jerman as mentioned but also none other than Andrej Hauptman Sporting Director (Directeur Sportif). They allegedly have personal contact and follow each other on social media. Even Hauptman's wife follows him. They seem to know each other better. Another connection is between Rozman and Boštjan Kavčnik (UAE mechanic).

In addition, the well-known doping doctor Dr. Mark Schmidt also worked for UAE in 2017. As a direct result, at least one UAE rider (Kristijan Đurasek) was suspended for blood doping between 2016 and 2019.

As the ARD documentary has already established, many doping routes lead to Slovenia and its protagonists appear to be well connected.

Whether this is of course enough to beat riders with significantly higher FTP values even on flat races remains questionable

Pogacar could have easily won today but it looked like he was not allowed to win. Same for the other stage Ineos won.

 

[kingjr]

I have my doubts. I feel he showed his true colours in the 2022 Tour of Flanders when he threw a hissy fit and has basically been managing media expectations after that. Perhaps I'm being harsh though and judging him in a weak moment; nevertheless I don't think he's exactly the chilled out angelic "just for fun" person he's made out to be.

If we're doing hyperbole, we might as well label all riders who ever waved their hands about after a *** sprint dangerous psychopaths.

 

[Unchained]

Good question what is the point of this thread; i guess to *** or riders you dont like.... I have nothing against productive reasonable discussion about doping but calling best rider in the world a crook cause claim of doping (without any proof) is to much for me.

This thread has Pog as part of it..and in bike racing use of dope it's assumed that everyone means PEDs..but after this TDF the Pogacar threads have to include that he either bribed Visma, put drugs in their food and drinks or paid Visma to take drugs to secure his win!! Drugs has to be the most likely cause for Pogacar's incredible win..but not they he used them, Visma has to be high to race like this!!

 

[bah]

If we're doing hyperbole, we might as well label all riders who ever waved their hands about after a *** sprint dangerous psychopaths.

Point taken but I do feel the general media narrative around Pogacar and the way that the general public react to him is unlike anything I've ever seen. There's virtually no negative comment towards him, he performs unheard of feats without any scepticism being voiced. I find it a stark contrast to the Armstrong era when there were some strong voices, albeit few, airing their doubts.

 

[bah]

This thread has Pog as part of it..and in bike racing use of dope it's assumed that everyone means PEDs..but after this TDF the Pogacar threads have to include that he either bribed Visma, put drugs in their food and drinks or paid Visma to take drugs to secure his win!! Drugs has to be the most likely cause for Pogacar's incredible win..but not they he used them, Visma has to be high to race like this!!

And yet they lost.

 

[Unchained]

And yet they lost.

UAE won, at almost every single decision in the TDF, Visma as a team and individuals have raced like they are drinking bong water 24\7!!!

 

[bah]

UAE won, at almost every single decision in the TDF, Visma as a team and individuals have raced like they are drinking bong water 24\7!!!

Well, I feel Visma threw the kitchen sink at it in desperation and still lost. I saw there was some minor race today where UAE came first, second and third. There may be an arms race but UAE are clearly winning.

 

[kingjr]

Point taken but I do feel the general media narrative around Pogacar and the way that the general public react to him is unlike anything I've ever seen. There's virtually no negative comment towards him, he performs unheard of feats without any scepticism being voiced. I find it a stark contrast to the Armstrong era when there were some strong voices, albeit few, airing their doubts.

I have to admit, I hardly pay attention to media narratives and the general public's reaction when it comes to sports, so a lot of that I just don't notice.

 

[Unchained]

Well, I feel Visma threw the kitchen sink at it in desperation and still lost. I saw there was some minor race today where UAE came first, second and third. There may be an arms race but UAE are clearly winning.

Visma did absolutely nothing.. They had multi years worth of very detailed data about Pogacar performances, with multiple support rider combinations, including weather conditions.. Absolutely everything that Visma did was based on some deranged emotional plan instead of data. Your observation is 100% accurate, Visma indeed did try everything, for no reason, no data based decision making, their every action was based on something other than real world witnessed, documented experience for the way Tadej races. And stage racing at this level, it specifically, especially in last @10 k, Jonas and Visma were secure with second place ,and podium why would you not play on the multiple minutes reserve Vingegaard has(had) on positions 3-10.. Had absolutely nothing to gain for squirt sprint for either 2nd or 3rd place, and his lack of logic has him finish in second with no time gained!! Everyone, absolutely everyone on Visma needs a drug test to include LSD, Molly, mushrooms.. Anything causing hallucinations..

 

[bah]

Visma did absolutely nothing.. They had multi years worth of very detailed data about Pogacar performances, with multiple support rider combinations, including weather conditions.. Absolutely everything that Visma did was based on some deranged emotional plan instead of data. Your observation is 100% accurate, Visma indeed did try everything, for no reason, no data based decision making, their every action was based on something other than real world witnessed, documented experience for the way Tadej races. And stage racing at this level, it specifically, especially in last @10 k, Jonas and Visma were secure with second place ,and podium why would you not play on the multiple minutes reserve Vingegaard has(had) on positions 3-10.. Had absolutely nothing to gain for squirt sprint for either 2nd or 3rd place, and his lack of logic has him finish in second with no time gained!! Everyone, absolutely everyone on Visma needs a drug test to include LSD, Molly, mushrooms.. Anything causing hallucinations..

I mean, if Pogacar is on the best programme (as many on this thread believe him to be) what exactly do you think Visma should have done differently? They threw the kitchen sink at it and got nothing; I realise you'll disagree but others on here will surmise that UAE have some advantage.

 

[Rob5091]

I mean, if Pogacar is on the best programme (as many on this thread believe him to be) what exactly do you think Visma should have done differently? They threw the kitchen sink at it and got nothing; I realise you'll disagree but others on here will surmise that UAE have some advantage.

Maybe Trine was right.

 

[repoman]

wellens. another uae transformation.

this was a rider who would only get any results near the start of the season and then would largely disappear.

last year I remember being shocked that he won the Belgian ITT.

now he is killing the mountains of the dauphine and TDF, as well as soloing the Belgian road race and a stage.

suddenly at age 34. give me a freakin' break.

and also narvaez -- now a mountain goat -- never performed like this in the mountains.

https://imgur.com/CwyotZU

lol

 

[Unchained]

I mean, if Pogacar is on the best programme (as many on this thread believe him to be) what exactly do you think Visma should have done differently? They threw the kitchen sink at it and got nothing; I realise you'll disagree but others on here will surmise that UAE have some advantage.

They should have done everything differently..
First make UAE work, make UAE pull as often as possible.. Visma should have keyed off of Pogacar's goals, maybe his ego.. Visma should have never, ever, ever been on the front. Riders like Yates, Kuss, Wout , Campanerts, Jorgenson, Benoot should have never broke wind, made pace for Pogacar!!
Why would they work and allow Pog and UAE to either rest or share the work!! Crazy tactics!!
Yates stage 8 was a complete accident!!
And the team and coaching staff saying their goal was to pressure Pogacar was insane, Coach could have said " our goal at Visma is for all riders to be 2meter20 tall by the end of the TDF" way easier than breaking Pogacar who has almost @24+ months of super, super strong riding and doing multiple years of almost mistake free racing.. And even with Visma stage win..it wasn't because they cracked Tadej..so they tried same thing 18 times and it didn't work a day..

 

[daking123]

I mean, if Pogacar is on the best programme (as many on this thread believe him to be) what exactly do you think Visma should have done differently? They threw the kitchen sink at it and got nothing; I realise you'll disagree but others on here will surmise that UAE have some advantage.

Both Pogacar and Vingegaard are clearly on top tier programs, no doubt about that. But if we’re being honest Vingegaard has proven to be the superior pure climber especially in the high mountains.
What’s harder to explain is Pogacars sudden leap in versatility. Out of nowhere, he goes from not even being on the radar for a race like Paris-Roubaix to nearly winning it arguably the hardest and most brutal race. No history in the cobbled classics, no buildup, no transitional performances… just boom.
And somehow, no one in the media seems to care.
I think this is possible due to their bike manufacture and UAE’s shady links.
What’s encouraging, though is that more and more teams seem to be fed up with the situation , and you can sense that frustration is boiling over. I honestly believe this might be the last season where Pogacar is allowed to dominate.

 

[SorelyBoy]

There has been a lot of motor-doping talk on here, daily.

There’s been a lot of talk of motor doping, not only on these pages but also increasingly in other places, because doping doesn't fully explain everything we are seeing from Pogacar. For example the seated attacks which deliver quite amazing accelerations within meters of being launched and which put a startling amount of distance into his competitors. Doping doesn’t explain the huge amount of torque required to generate the power required to implement these attacks. Neither does doping fully explain the remarkable lack of fatigue he appears to experience across such a heavy season or during the classics blocks of races (say unlike MVDP). Yeah, yeah he’s feeling tired tonight apparently God love him, what a nice performance only an idiot would be fooled by. No one is arguing that the e-bike is used every day. That would be far too risky and in any case not required. He’s still a top class rider on the best programme money can buy. Personally I think it’s being used tactically on certain key stages, and at the Spring Classics. For example (there are others), if you want to guarantee winning La Flèche Wallone on the Mur de Huy then it’s a no brainer if you and you’re team are that way inclined. The ability to implement that type of short seated anaerobic attack isn’t helped by EPO type oxygen delivery drug. The amount of power being delivered on that climb looked unnatural. And sometimes the most obvious explanation is the explanation.

 

[ashhutch1997]

Both Pogacar and Vingegaard are clearly on top tier programs, no doubt about that. But if we’re being honest Vingegaard has proven to be the superior pure climber especially in the high mountains.
What’s harder to explain is Pogacars sudden leap in versatility. Out of nowhere, he goes from not even being on the radar for a race like Paris-Roubaix to nearly winning it arguably the hardest and most brutal race. No history in the cobbled classics, no buildup, no transitional performances… just boom.
And somehow, no one in the media seems to care.
I think this is possible due to their bike manufacture and UAE’s shady links.
What’s encouraging, though is that more and more teams seem to be fed up with the situation , and you can sense that frustration is boiling over. I honestly believe this might be the last season where Pogacar is allowed to dominate.

I certainly hope so, especially with the viewing figures dropping this year. But how would they stop him from dominating?

 

[bah]

They should have done everything differently..
First make UAE work, make UAE pull as often as possible.. Visma should have keyed off of Pogacar's goals, maybe his ego.. Visma should have never, ever, ever been on the front. Riders like Yates, Kuss, Wout , Campanerts, Jorgenson, Benoot should have never broke wind, made pace for Pogacar!!
Why would they work and allow Pog and UAE to either rest or share the work!! Crazy tactics!!
Yates stage 8 was a complete accident!!
And the team and coaching staff saying their goal was to pressure Pogacar was insane, Coach could have said " our goal at Visma is for all riders to be 2meter20 tall by the end of the TDF" way easier than breaking Pogacar who has almost @24+ months of super, super strong riding and doing multiple years of almost mistake free racing.. And even with Visma stage win..it wasn't because they cracked Tadej..so they tried same thing 18 times and it didn't work a day.

If Pogacar is as far ahead as his fans all claim (e.g "Pogi will crush the fisherman") then it was all pretty much a done deal. As long as "Pogi" is in a race there's very little interest for everyone else.

 

[madthebad]

I think the explanation is very simple : Pogi is the GOAT , best rider of all time . All these conspiracies are the result of some people not being able to understand the level of talent which has never been seen before that this dude has.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Both Pogacar and Vingegaard are clearly on top tier programs, no doubt about that. But if we’re being honest Vingegaard has proven to be the superior pure climber especially in the high mountains.
What’s harder to explain is Pogacars sudden leap in versatility. Out of nowhere, he goes from not even being on the radar for a race like Paris-Roubaix to nearly winning it arguably the hardest and most brutal race. No history in the cobbled classics, no buildup, no transitional performances… just boom.
And somehow, no one in the media seems to care.
I think this is possible due to their bike manufacture and UAE’s shady links.
What’s encouraging, though is that more and more teams seem to be fed up with the situation , and you can sense that frustration is boiling over. I honestly believe this might be the last season where Pogacar is allowed to dominate.

Great post. His classics performances are startling. Like he’s become the greatest classics rider of all time out of nowhere. How does such a relatively light guy generate that amount of power? The ability to just cycle away from an entire peloton at will. Or accelerate up extreme inclines slopes at will and without getting out of his seat? His overall ridiculous level of superiority is only lauded, never questioned by the media, although I do wonder if this situation will hold.

 

[Ripper]

They should have done everything differently..
First make UAE work, make UAE pull as often as possible.. Visma should have keyed off of Pogacar's goals, maybe his ego.. Visma should have never, ever, ever been on the front. Riders like Yates, Kuss, Wout , Campanerts, Jorgenson, Benoot should have never broke wind, made pace for Pogacar!!
Why would they work and allow Pog and UAE to either rest or share the work!! Crazy tactics!!
Yates stage 8 was a complete accident!!
And the team and coaching staff saying their goal was to pressure Pogacar was insane, Coach could have said " our goal at Visma is for all riders to be 2meter20 tall by the end of the TDF" way easier than breaking Pogacar who has almost @24+ months of super, super strong riding and doing multiple years of almost mistake free racing.. And even with Visma stage win..it wasn't because they cracked Tadej..so they tried same thing 18 times and it didn't work a day..

I would not defend Visma. They have been and continue to be clowns.

But I will say that to the bolded, today was actually a bit of that, no? Perhaps an trial for the next time. They let Pogacar pace. I mean, there's nothing to lose there, as the only way they'd win the whole Tour today is if the dude crashed. But they could just go with the - we're not playing this game. You lead, your team work. And perhaps the only effect of that is either annoying or boring Pogacar, but that could still be considered a success.

 

[AlpRaid]

I have my doubts. I feel he showed his true colours in the 2022 Tour of Flanders when he threw a hissy fit and has basically been managing media expectations after that. Perhaps I'm being harsh though and judging him in a weak moment; nevertheless I don't think he's exactly the chilled out angelic "just for fun" person he's made out to be.

Agreed 100%.

And the sports “GOATS” rarely are. Merckx, Armstrong, Kobe, Jordan… usually what makes them the driven people they also means that are lacking elsewhere.