Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[AlpRaid]

Neither does doping fully explain the remarkable lack of fatigue he appears to experience across such a heavy season or during the classics blocks of races (say unlike MVDP).

Totally. Lack of ANY fatigue since the start of 2024. Constantly looks like he is on a casual training ride.

Giving off such Armstrong-TDF vibes. Not Armstrong-Tour of Gila vibes.

 

[Raest]

Visma did absolutely nothing.. They had multi years worth of very detailed data about Pogacar performances, with multiple support rider combinations, including weather conditions.. Absolutely everything that Visma did was based on some deranged emotional plan instead of data. Your observation is 100% accurate, Visma indeed did try everything, for no reason, no data based decision making, their every action was based on something other than real world witnessed, documented experience for the way Tadej races. And stage racing at this level, it specifically, especially in last @10 k, Jonas and Visma were secure with second place ,and podium why would you not play on the multiple minutes reserve Vingegaard has(had) on positions 3-10.. Had absolutely nothing to gain for squirt sprint for either 2nd or 3rd place, and his lack of logic has him finish in second with no time gained!! Everyone, absolutely everyone on Visma needs a drug test to include LSD, Molly, mushrooms.. Anything causing hallucinations..

Not sure we disagree exactly but i think in the last week Visma, tactically, wiped the floor with UAE, they completely negated Pogacar's domestiques and managed to isolate him. Yesterday's plan was very difficult to pull on and yet they did. I think though that Pog lives now rent free in Vingegaard's head. He 's totally scared of him, he didn't dare to attack him on La Loze and the others caught up. Today Pogacar wasn't interested or just tired, he pulled for most of La Plagne and Vingegaard gifted the stage to Arensman, he didn't even try. So much for going all or nothing

 

[AlpRaid]

Not sure we disagree exactly but i think in the last week Visma, tactically, wiped the floor with UAE…

Problem is they are repeating same tactics that worked in 2022 and 2023. When their data said they just needed to make Pog expend KJs over the course of three weeks and in the third week Vingo would outlast him on that front. They were so confident in that that they did not feel the double-headed leadership with Rog was even necessary.

But something happened to Pog between Combloux crushing and the new Pog of 2024.

 

[Raest]

Problem is they are repeating same tactics that worked in 2022 and 2023. When their data said they just needed to make Pog expend KJs over the course of three weeks and in the third week Vingo would outlast him on that front. They were so confident in that that they did not feel the double-headed leadership with Rog was even necessary.

But something happened to Pog between Combloux crushing and the new Pog of 2024.

And what's the alternative? They put pressure on him early, the took away his domestiques through attrition relatively early. Then Vingegaard baulked at La Loze. The only tactic that has worked against him in the past is him having to cover attacks from different riders himself, like he had to do in 2022. But no one else had a credible threat and Jorgenson was not in the shape he was last year so he was a non-factor in GC. The only way to beat him now is for two teams to work together but this won't happen cause they don't trust each other.

 

[repoman]

Doesn't matter if Visma was perfect. Pogacar could come with no team and still wipe the floor. He is clearly on something alien-tier compared to Vingegaard.

 

[AlpRaid]

And what's the alternative? They put pressure on him early, the took away his domestiques through attrition relatively early. Then Vingegaard baulked at La Loze. The only tactic that has worked against him in the past is him having to cover attacks from different riders himself, like he had to do in 2022. But no one else had a credible threat and Jorgenson was not in the shape he was last year so he was a non-factor in GC. The only way to beat him now is for two teams to work together but this won't happen cause they don't trust each other.

not arguing with you at all.

I actually don't think there is anything to be done against the present incarnation (24-25) of pog.

well...unless u "level up".

 

[ivanic]

the narrative today is that he's tired, his face is dull, no Vuelta, and he finished the Tour in poor shape

informal warning?.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

The only thing that is going to make a GT that Pog is contesting, interesting, is to wall off the final climb, let the main peloton start the climb, close the gate behind them, and then 3 minutes later, release a pack of ravenous wolves loose behind them. With the way he rode this Tour, it's the only real way we can actually see the W/KG he is capable of. He phoned it in, even when he was "attacking."

Ben Healy is the only saving grace for this Tour.

 

[proffate]

For good or bad he is not even close to Merckx.

I mean this looks pretty close

Eddy had 7 consecutive years on top. Teddy is on 5.

 

[ChewbaccaDefense]

the narrative today is that he's tired, his face is dull, no Vuelta, and he finished the Tour in poor shape

informal warning?.

It would be a perfect Tour if he abandoned tomorrow morning, because they always used to abandon if they were caught. The failed test comes out, then Jonas wins with an asterisk, until he is later popped for doping, and the Lipowitz takes the crown.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I have my doubts. I feel he showed his true colours in the 2022 Tour of Flanders when he threw a hissy fit and has basically been managing media expectations after that. Perhaps I'm being harsh though and judging him in a weak moment; nevertheless I don't think he's exactly the chilled out angelic "just for fun" person he's made out to be.

You are definitely judging him in a weak moment.

He might not be angelic, honestly who is ? But overall he is definitely a chill guy and really nice in real life.

 

[Lorzenz08]

Doesn't matter if Visma was perfect. Pogacar could come with no team and still wipe the floor. He is clearly on something alien-tier compared to Vingegaard.

He is

 

[AlpRaid]

I mean this looks pretty close

Eddy had 7 consecutive years on top. Teddy is on 5.

the comment was about "classics" not GTs.

Pog is not near Merckx's palmares in terms of classics. yet.

he may eventually get there, particularly because Merckx's career is relatively short as you point out. (Merckx only raced 7 TDFs, winning 5. Pog has already raced 6, winning 4.)

but in terms of classics/monuments, pog still has a long way to go.

Merckx
Milan-San Remo: 7 wins
Tour of Flanders: 2 wins
Paris-Roubaix: 3 wins
Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 5 wins
Giro di Lombardia: 2 wins
Worlds: 3 wins

Pog
Tour of Flanders: 2 wins
Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 3 wins
Giro di Lombardia: 4 wins
Worlds: 1 win

Things could start to tilt in Pog's direction once he wins both Worlds and Lombardy this season -- as he is favored to do. He will have 12 wins in the major one day races by age only 27!

Merckx pretty much stopped winning after the 1975 TDF at age barely 30. Only the 1976 MSR as a major victory after that.

We will see.

 

[AlpRaid]

...he is definitely a chill guy and really nice in real life.

do you know him personally?

and frankly it's not too hard to "come across" that way if everything is super easy and going your way. let's see if that public facade stays when things eventually get tougher -- like at 2022 Flanders -- or if he has to spend a bunch of time recovering from injury and cannot win by riding only in zone 2.

 

[Rackham]

You are definitely judging him in a weak moment.

He might not be angelic, honestly who is ? But overall he is definitely a chill guy and really nice in real life.

At the moment all the talk in town in this Tour is about how depressed and disinterested Pog looks.

It's a miserable Tour and Pog is a miserable yellow jersey.

 

[dr.eve]

I would not defend Visma. They have been and continue to be clowns.

But I will say that to the bolded, today was actually a bit of that, no? Perhaps an trial for the next time. They let Pogacar pace. I mean, there's nothing to lose there, as the only way they'd win the whole Tour today is if the dude crashed. But they could just go with the - we're not playing this game. You lead, your team work. And perhaps the only effect of that is either annoying or boring Pogacar, but that could still be considered a success.

Could be but it would have been a badly designed trial then... This trial should not take place in werk 3 but week 1. If you have Pogacar beating you still in week 1 and 2 it is of no use that you can hold his wheel in week 3.

 

[dr.eve]

You are definitely judging him in a weak moment.

He might not be angelic, honestly who is ? But overall he is definitely a chill guy and really nice in real life.

Typical what fanboys say, claiming to know how their favourite celebrity is in real life despite the displayed actions that show the contrary.

 

[madthebad]

Doesn't matter if Visma was perfect. Pogacar could come with no team and still wipe the floor. He is clearly on something alien-tier compared to Vingegaard.

yep , of course he is , it's called talent , flair and panache , 3 things that Vingegaard doesnt have. You cannot compare a proper champion who dominated since a a very young age with some shy fish factory worker that woke up one day and started riding mutant level watts . Let's not insult Tadej by comparing him to someone way less talented .

 

[Venge 82]

yep , of course he is , it's called talent , flair and panache , 3 things that Vingegaard doesnt have. You cannot compare a proper champion who dominated since a a very young age with some shy fish factory worker that woke up one day and started riding mutant level watts . Let's not insult Tadej by comparing him to someone way less talented .

To claim that Vingegaard has no talent — someone who has won the Tour de France twice — is honestly quite ridiculous. Does you truly understand what it takes to perform at that level? Have your ever even ridden a Gran Fondo or a local kermesse race?

I say this not as a Vingegaard fan — I'm actually a Remco fan — but respect where it's due.

And yes, Pogacar is immensely talented. But let's not rewrite history: his results in the youth and junior categories, while strong, were not those of an untouchable prodigy.

 

[Rackham]

Pog fanboys versus Vinge fanboys is truly the Ronaldo-Messi era we don't deserve. As Nicolas Fritsch says, the "footballization of cycling is in full swing".

My opinion? I think both riders are boring corporate slop produced by teams addicted to science and marketing. I also think their most determined fans have lost perspective. Cycling existed before these guys and will (hopefully) exist after, but if there's one thing that has always held true and it's a particularity to this sport, it's that super-performances and domination always comes with an asterisk.

And what makes matters worse is when either rider isn't in top form, they pollute the race by mutually poisoning each other's objectives.

 

[madthebad]

To claim that Vingegaard has no talent — someone who has won the Tour de France twice — is honestly quite ridiculous. Does you truly understand what it takes to perform at that level? Have your ever even ridden a Gran Fondo or a local kermesse race?

I say this not as a Vingegaard fan — I'm actually a Remco fan — but respect where it's due.

And yes, Pogacar is immensely talented. But let's not rewrite history: his results in the youth and junior categories, while strong, were not those of an untouchable prodigy.
To claim that Vingegaard has no talent — someone who has won the Tour de France twice — is honestly quite ridiculous. Does the original poster truly understand what it takes to perform at that level? Has he ever even ridden a Gran Fondo or a local kermesse race?

I say this not as a Vingegaard fan — I'm actually a Remco fan — but respect where it's due. You don't just "wake up one day" and ride Tour-winning wattages without an incredible amount of talent, dedication, and hard work. Dismissing Vingegaard as some fluke or "mutant" completely ignores the complexity and depth of professional cycling.

And yes, Pogacar is immensely talented. But let's not rewrite history: his results in the youth and junior categories, while strong, were not those of an untouchable prodigy. His rise was fast, but not unprecedented.

I am watching the TDF since '99 , not much but a decent amount of years for my age, and I can truly say that during these last 25 years I have not a seen a less charismatic , less talented ( and I'm not talking about the number of watts he can pull on a climb here ) more robotic , with less tactical prowess and the personality of a wet mop than Jonas Vingegaard . This guy except riding ridiculous number of watts is totally clueless , his decision making is absolutely atrocious , he is one of the main reasons for why Visma look so stupid at times.

 

[Venge 82]

I am watching the TDF since '99 , not much but a decent amount of years for my age, and I can truly say that during these last 25 years I have not a seen a less charismatic , less talented ( and I'm not talking about the number of watts he can pull on a climb here ) more robotic , with less tactical prowess and the personality of a wet mop than Jonas Vingegaard . This guy except riding ridiculous number of watts is totally clueless , his decision making is absolutely atrocious , he is one of the main reasons for why Visma look so stupid at times.

I do not debate the fact that Jonas is not charismatic. I do agree 100%. Again, I’m not a Jonas fan. But to claim he has no talent. I wish I had the talent of the Lanterne Rouge in the TdF.

 

[Rackham]

I do not debate the fact that Jonas is not charismatic. I do agree 100%. Again, I’m not a Jonas fan. But to claim he has no talent. I wish I had the talent of the Lanterne Rouge in the TdF.

This is cycling.

I'm sure Riccardo Ricco had 'talent'. But I have to interject here that talent in cycling doesn't mean what it means in tennis or football. It's not a valid defense of a rider's performances considering the historically accepted gap between riding around with PED's versus riding paniagua.

Hence why mythical 'bike handling' and sixth sense style tactical and positional nous is often added into picture for good measure so as to sell the notion of talent beyond W/kg - otherwise Mark Padun should be seen as one of the greatest fleeting talents of the 2020's based on what he achieved in a couple of Dauphiné stages.

Point being: I'd define it by saying Vingegaard clearly responded to whatever preparation he did with Visma really well, i.e. before hitting some sort of plateau which seems to be his issue right now.

 

[Red Rick]

Pog fanboys versus Vinge fanboys is truly the Ronaldo-Messi era we don't deserve. As Nicolas Fritsch says, the "footballization of cycling is in full swing".

My opinion? I think both riders are boring corporate slop produced by teams addicted to science and marketing. I also think their most determined fans have lost perspective. Cycling existed before these guys and will (hopefully) exist after, but if there's one thing that has always held true and it's a particularity to this sport, it's that super-performances and domination always comes with an asterisk.

And what makes matters worse is when either rider isn't in top form, they pollute the race by mutually poisoning each other's objectives.

We're moving away from football as of yesterday. Ineos won the stage.

 

[Rackham]

We're moving away from football as of yesterday. Ineos won the stage.

Man Utd fans daring to dream... of not getting relegated.