Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Venge 82]

I am watching the TDF since '99 , not much but a decent amount of years for my age, and I can truly say that during these last 25 years I have not a seen a less charismatic , less talented ( and I'm not talking about the number of watts he can pull on a climb here ) more robotic , with less tactical prowess and the personality of a wet mop than Jonas Vingegaard . This guy except riding ridiculous number of watts is totally clueless , his decision making is absolutely atrocious , he is one of the main reasons for why Visma look so stupid at times.

I do not debate the fact that Jonas is not charismatic. I do agree 100%. Again, I’m not a Jonas fan. But to claim he has no talent. I wish I had the talent of the Lanterne Rouge in the TdF.

 

[Rackham]

I do not debate the fact that Jonas is not charismatic. I do agree 100%. Again, I’m not a Jonas fan. But to claim he has no talent. I wish I had the talent of the Lanterne Rouge in the TdF.

This is cycling.

I'm sure Riccardo Ricco had 'talent'. But I have to interject here that talent in cycling doesn't mean what it means in tennis or football. It's not a valid defense of a rider's performances considering the historically accepted gap between riding around with PED's versus riding paniagua.

Hence why mythical 'bike handling' and sixth sense style tactical and positional nous is often added into picture for good measure so as to sell the notion of talent beyond W/kg - otherwise Mark Padun should be seen as one of the greatest fleeting talents of the 2020's based on what he achieved in a couple of Dauphiné stages.

Point being: I'd define it by saying Vingegaard clearly responded to whatever preparation he did with Visma really well, i.e. before hitting some sort of plateau which seems to be his issue right now.

 

[Red Rick]

Pog fanboys versus Vinge fanboys is truly the Ronaldo-Messi era we don't deserve. As Nicolas Fritsch says, the "footballization of cycling is in full swing".

My opinion? I think both riders are boring corporate slop produced by teams addicted to science and marketing. I also think their most determined fans have lost perspective. Cycling existed before these guys and will (hopefully) exist after, but if there's one thing that has always held true and it's a particularity to this sport, it's that super-performances and domination always comes with an asterisk.

And what makes matters worse is when either rider isn't in top form, they pollute the race by mutually poisoning each other's objectives.

We're moving away from football as of yesterday. Ineos won the stage.

 

[Rackham]

We're moving away from football as of yesterday. Ineos won the stage.

Man Utd fans daring to dream... of not getting relegated.

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

the comment was about "classics" not GTs.

Pog is not near Merckx's palmares in terms of classics. yet.

he may eventually get there, particularly because Merckx's career is relatively short as you point out. (Merckx only raced 7 TDFs, winning 5. Pog has already raced 6, winning 4.)

but in terms of classics/monuments, pog still has a long way to go.

Merckx
Milan-San Remo: 7 wins
Tour of Flanders: 2 wins
Paris-Roubaix: 3 wins
Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 5 wins
Giro di Lombardia: 2 wins
Worlds: 3 wins

Pog
Tour of Flanders: 2 wins
Liège-Bastogne-Liège: 3 wins
Giro di Lombardia: 4 wins
Worlds: 1 win

Things could start to tilt in Pog's direction once he wins both Worlds and Lombardy this season -- as he is favored to do. He will have 12 wins in the major one day races by age only 27!

Merckx pretty much stopped winning after the 1975 TDF at age barely 30. Only the 1976 MSR as a major victory after that.

We will see.

These are absurd comparisons.
Take Paris-Roubaix 1973.
Won by Merckx.
Belgians took the first 8 places.
The first non-Belgian finished... 12 minutes behind Merckx.

It was a different, way less competitive era.

Gianetti and Matxin broke cycling with Pogacar and I'm pretty sure the Slovenian will have to drop dead on the bike before serious questions will be asked.

 

[Red Rick]

These are absurd comparisons.
Take Paris-Roubaix 1973.
Won by Merckx.
Belgians took the first 8 places.
The first non-Belgian finished... 12 minutes behind Merckx.

It was a different, way less competitive era.

Gianetti and Matxin broke cycling with Pogacar and I'm pretty sure the Slovenian will have to drop dead on the bike before serious questions will be asked.

Hey now, if he drops dead on the bike it will always be disrespectful and too soon to ask questions.

 

[Venge 82]

There are several connections between Rozman and UAE.

Pogi's best mate Ziga Jerman as mentioned but also none other than Andrej Hauptman Sporting Director (Directeur Sportif). They allegedly have personal contact and follow each other on social media. Even Hauptman's wife follows him. They seem to know each other better. Another connection is between Rozman and Boštjan Kavčnik (UAE mechanic).

In addition, the well-known doping doctor Dr. Mark Schmidt also worked for UAE in 2017. As a direct result, at least one UAE rider (Kristijan Đurasek) was suspended for blood doping between 2016 and 2019.

As the ARD documentary has already established, many doping routes lead to Slovenia and its protagonists appear to be well connected.

Whether this is of course enough to beat riders with significantly higher FTP values even on flat races remains questionable

Pogacar could have easily won today but it looked like he was not allowed to win. Same for the other stage Ineos won.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

not arguing with you at all.

I actually don't think there is anything to be done against the present incarnation (24-25) of pog.

well...unless u "level up".

It seems Vingegaard quite quickly evolved into Blastoise while Pogačar had to spent more time before he eventually found a thunder stone and became Raichu.

 

[SHAD0W93]

It seems Vingegaard quite quickly evolved into Blastoise while Pogačar had to spent more time before he eventually found a thunder stone and became Raichu.

I think a better comparison is Pogacar as Hydreigon slowly grinding to level up while Vingegaard used a firestone to evolve into Arcanine quickly.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I think a better comparison is Pogacar as Hydreigon slowly grinding to level up while Vingegaard used a firestone to evolve into Arcanine quickly.

Vingegaard has to be a water Pokémon, but perhaps a Mega Gyarados that still has the personality of a Magikarp is more accurate.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Vingegaard has to be a water Pokémon, but perhaps a Mega Gyarados that still has the personality of a Magikarp is more accurate.

Why a water pokemon?

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Why a water pokemon?

Because of all the fish stuff.

 

[daking123]

I am watching the TDF since '99 , not much but a decent amount of years for my age, and I can truly say that during these last 25 years I have not a seen a less charismatic , less talented ( and I'm not talking about the number of watts he can pull on a climb here ) more robotic , with less tactical prowess and the personality of a wet mop than Jonas Vingegaard . This guy except riding ridiculous number of watts is totally clueless , his decision making is absolutely atrocious , he is one of the main reasons for why Visma look so stupid at times.

Vingegaard comes across as an idiot, but that’s just because of his lack of personality. I don’t think he’s as stupid as you make him out to be. It’s like Pogacar fans have amnesia whenever their beloved GOAT is involved. Visma has actually shown okay tactics this Tour constantly trying to set up Vingegaard. And let’s not forget they’re the only team that has really managed to stop Pogacar.
What always makes me laugh is how Pogacar’s arrogance made him repeatedly close the gap to Roglic and by that lose the Tour. Is that what tactical genius looks like? And I still remember that TT where Jonas took six seconds on Pogacar in the first corner. Is that what “clueless” looks like?

I hate visma and UAE, but I can’t stand how you guys completely rewrite history.

 

[Rackham]

These are absurd comparisons.
Take Paris-Roubaix 1973.
Won by Merckx.
Belgians took the first 8 places.
The first non-Belgian finished... 12 minutes behind Merckx.

It was a different, way less competitive era.

Gianetti and Matxin broke cycling with Pogacar and I'm pretty sure the Slovenian will have to drop dead on the bike before serious questions will be asked.

I'm actually seeing people defend and handwave Pog's miserable depressed demeanour over the past week... with talk about mental health issues in sport.

Yes, all shields lead to Rome aka anything goes when it comes to defending this rider.

 

[Lorzenz08]

I'm not sure how you can even be interested in the TdF if you dislike dominance by a rider.
Historically the TdF is almost constantly dominated by one or two guys, until the next generation.

Like for the past 40 years there is only been like 5 non dominant TdF winner (Roche, Delgado,Sastre, Cadel Evans and Nibali)

 

[ashhutch1997]

I am watching the TDF since '99 , not much but a decent amount of years for my age, and I can truly say that during these last 25 years I have not a seen a less charismatic , less talented ( and I'm not talking about the number of watts he can pull on a climb here ) more robotic , with less tactical prowess and the personality of a wet mop than Jonas Vingegaard . This guy except riding ridiculous number of watts is totally clueless , his decision making is absolutely atrocious , he is one of the main reasons for why Visma look so stupid at times.

I'm presuming you didn't watch the TDF during the Sky years?

 

[ashhutch1997]

I'm not sure how you can even be interested in the TdF if you dislike dominance by a rider.
Historically the TdF is almost constantly dominated by one or two guys, until the next generation.

Like for the past 40 years there is only been like 5 non dominant GT winner (Roche, Delgado,Sastre, Cadel Evans and Nibali)

My issue is this guy had dominated every race for the last two years. I used to be a massive Pogacar fan but last year was too much, was just too blatant.

 

[Ripper]

Could be but it would have been a badly designed trial then... This trial should not take place in werk 3 but week 1. If you have Pogacar beating you still in week 1 and 2 it is of no use that you can hold his wheel in week 3.

It depends on the intent. I don't think the intention would be "this is our week 3 strategy". More like "screw this, we've tried our 'tactics' for 2 weeks and we've lost. Let him lead". Especially given his habit of spanking Jonas/anyone at the end of a climb.

 

[dr.eve]

It depends on the intent. I don't think the intention would be "this is our week 3 strategy". More like "screw this, we've tried our 'tactics' for 2 weeks and we've lost. Let him lead". Especially given his habit of spanking Jonas/anyone at the end of a climb.

I agree, but all what happened now could clearly be a week 3 thing.

Anyway I hope they and other teams don't become numb to Pogacar and start with the white flag hoisted.
Maybe Arensman's victory, from the GC group on a MTF may inspire others to attempt more next time. Afterall, Yes there is no one like Pogacar or even like Vingegaard, but there's more Arensmans out there.

 

[madthebad]

I'm presuming you didn't watch the TDF during the Sky years?

Froome was Brad Pitt in terms of charisma compared to Vingegaard . I think even a dead fish has more personality on and off the bike than the fisherman .

 

[Ripper]

I agree, but all what happened now could clearly be a week 3 thing.

Anyway I hope they and other teams don't become numb to Pogacar and start with the white flag hoisted.
Maybe Arensman's victory, from the GC group on a MTF may inspire others to attempt more next time. Afterall, Yes there is no one like Pogacar or even like Vingegaard, but there's more Arensmans out there.

Who knows. It does seem like Pogacar gives a bit of an air of "I let that person win because they deserved it". Not a great look.

But on another note, UAE head of performance says it all makes sense with the science! So it is all A-OK

 

[Ripper]

Froome was Brad Pitt in terms of charisma compared to Vingegaard . I think even a dead fish has more personality on and off the bike than the fisherman .

Ah, so you are a sucker for certain charisma. That's totally OK, a lot of fans can be driven by that factor.

But, it is sort of like Contador vs Rasmussen (or vs Evans). Folks loved Contador for all the reasons you stated, whereas Rasmussen did not get the love.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Froome was Brad Pitt in terms of charisma compared to Vingegaard . I think even a dead fish has more personality on and off the bike than the fisherman .

I don't think attacking a rider for their personality or charisma is particularly useful. Their public persona is only a small part of what they are in total. Certainly GC contenders need to be able to lead teams and therefore get buy-in from their team mates. Also, they might be more relaxed in private than in the full gaze of the media. Additionally, one person's 'cold fish' might be another's 'chilled cat'. That is, we can't separate ourselves from the reaction we have to a particular person. And it's even more difficult if we are only catching a glimpse of that person via a TV screen as they answer questions from journalists, questions that are often pretty silly, and when said rider might be very tired and not their best selves. Back when Armstrong had a monopoly on the Tour, he came across as confident to some people and fairly arrogant to others. But no one who didn't know him intimately could tell that he was actually a narcissistic sociopath and an utter *** in totality. He had a public persona and he kept the rest hidden.
As for Pogacar (this is the Pogacar/Gianetti thread), he strikes me (I can only speak for me) as being a fairly cold and calculating individual who is determined to win at all costs. That's not a sin in and of itself. All great sports people have that killer instinct. Neither do they like losing that much and from time to time we have seen flashes of that side of him. When he's winning he is all humility and sweetness. But if things don't go his way, I wouldn't like to be the swanny who has to massage him that evening.
What I have noticed though recently is that he doesn't appear to be feeling any joy in what he's doing. It feels perfunctory, like he's so far ahead of everyone that, like Alexander, he has seen the breadth of his domain and that there are no more worlds to conquer, and he's thinking 'Is this it? Shouldn't it be better?' Or perhaps it's because he knows it's all an empty and worthless charade and whatever remains of his conscience is telling him that. That the young man who set out to simply ride a bike and race has been lost to the temptations of this world never to return. I don't know, maybe he's laughing his ass off, but I doubt it.

 

[Rackham]

What I have noticed though recently is that he doesn't appear to be feeling any joy in what he's doing. It feels perfunctory, like he's so far ahead of everyone that, like Alexander, he has seen the breadth of his domain and that there are no more worlds to conquer, and he's thinking 'Is this it? Shouldn't it be better?' Or perhaps it's because he knows it's all an empty and worthless charade and whatever remains of his conscience is telling him that. That the young man who set out to simply ride a bike and race has been lost to the temptations of this world never to return. I don't know, maybe he's laughing his ass off, but I doubt it.

It's emotional blackmail. I'm only half kidding as well, i.e. think about it: Pog crushes Hautacam and people start to talk about him winning too much, then Politt goes full Polizei on the Ventoux stage and the peloton almost rebels. Pog afterwards says some people should shut up with their complaints and he starts riding around with a sourpuss expression, even throwing away wins almost flippantly.

I think there's a scenario here where Pog is a total narcissist tbh and doesn't just want to 'win', no, he wants adoration and people to act amazed at his exploits. Failure to do so (like complaining about how much he wins) = sulking Pog, ala Cristiano Ronaldo.

Either that or the Rozman story is deeper than we think and it's caused some ruckus in the peloton.

 

[AlpRaid]

These are absurd comparisons.

back at ya. but I don't believe anyone was arguing quality of competition -- always a mixed bag when comparing generations.

however, if you want to go down that route, merckx competed in the monuments against devlaeminck, martens, moser, gimondi, bitossi -- all top 23 all-time (and I am not even counting VanLooy - at the end of his career, or Hinault - at the beginning of his). and devlaeminck is one of the rare three riders in history who won all five monuments (despite competing against merckx).

who is pog's monument competition other than VDP who only provides a challenge in three of those monuments?

same can be said about TDF competition. Merckx's competition included Pingeon, Ocana, Thevenet, Zoetemelk, Van Impe -- all TDF winners or eventual winners in their prime. now pog's competition there is pretty strong already -- vingo, Thomas and bernal. however, only vingo so far has been in his prime. anecdotally, if you want to consider strength of competition, then Hinault's wins lose a lot of luster. His main competition was Zoetemelk, Van Impe, Agostinho (all from Merckx's generation). Once he was faced by the next group of TDF winners (Fignon and LeMond) he lost.

I'm not really arguing with you, okay, there are different ways of looking at these things. but this started with a poster saying that pog was pretty much equal to merckx in the classics. by nearly all data, that is simply not yet the case. however, I agree that he could get there with longevity -- particularly since VDP is really the only one who can compete with pog (and potentially stop him) at MSR, Ronde and P-R. and he is getting older.