Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

I suppose his crashes last year, particularly at the Vuelta, would be lame excuses.

They explain why he wasn't keen on taking risk earlier this season. I am pretty sure he wouldn't won this kind of stage in the rain 3 months ago.

 

[repoman]

No motor today. Makes a difference, doesn’t it?

Mauro forgot to plug the charger in.

 

[kingjr]

They explain why he wasn't keen on taking risk earlier this season. I am pretty sure he wouldn't won this kind of stage in the rain 3 months ago.

Yeah, I'm sure the injuries don't affect performance at all.

 

[bNator]

Because back then doping in general was much less effective. It was pre epo

It’s just double standards is what it is. You can’t be disgusted by Pog’s alleged cheating while at the same time being totally cool with a 100% proven albeit a bit less effective (in absolute terms) form of cheating.

I don’t linger here much because I find this place to have much more to do with hate towards certain riders than expressing disgust over doping in general. But every now and then I will call out an absolute *** when I read it…

 

[E_F_]

Yeah, I'm sure the injuries don't affect performance at all.

Well Jonas was slightly better last year after his injuries, than this year with optimal prep.

 

[kingjr]

Well Jonas was slightly better last year after his injuries, than this year with optimal prep.

They had the same injuries?

 

[SorelyBoy]

Because back then doping in general was much less effective. It was pre epo

Yeah exactly. It’s like comparing a kid messing about with fireworks and bottle rockets to NASA. ‘But they’re the same, they both had a space programme.’ Ffs.

 

[Extinction]

[deleted content]

The dirty work was done by Gianetti and performance handling by Gianetti-Maxtin (Riccò, Piepoli, Cobo). Not that the others are innocent, but now Gianetti has UAE petrol-dollars to be given a free pass (which he didn't have at Saunier-Douval). That's the greatest coup.

 

[AlpRaid]

No I just find it ironic that people who have so much to say against Pog’s (as of yet unproven) doping will use Merckx as yardstick for greatness.

Oh my God. You do I hope understand that all I was doing was replying to someone who said his record in classics was equal to Merckx’s. It simply isn’t. End of story. At least not yet. That was my one and only point. It came up in this thread, but it had nothing to do with doping. So I really don’t know what you’ve got your panties in a twist about. Anyway, if you wanna talk differences in doping between the two: oxygen vector drugs are a completely different ballpark from Cortizone taken in the 1970s. They’re both cheating for sure. But only one has the ability to completely transform the hierarchy.

 

[AlpRaid]

Yeah, I'm sure the injuries don't affect performance at all.

Not if you’re Belgian. All other riders are allowed to be affected by injury, just not Belgian riders.

 

[Unchained]

I thought Pogi was evasive and ridiculous (fake naivete) to the point of being awkward and embarassing (at least Lance was imperious) in this interview.

View: https://youtu.be/AXzpyShXvoM?si=Pmk-nL7GU61Cmyq2

Just so we are clear Pogacar while trying to maintain a world championship title ,a TDF title and defence, fighting off crashing, sniffles, @13 teams trying to destroy him should be abreast of current news and specifically because a guy in the news was also holding a Slovenian passport, or was born there?
I mean Pogacar is talented sure but knowing the birth status of some guy from his home country?
Sounds like if Pogacar cures cancer, immediately someone will say what took you so long? Are you lazy or what? The guy asking the question needs a drug test and press credentials verified!!!That fact that Tadej didn't toss the guy, answers like a gentleman, despite the utter stupidity and lack of relevance of the question.. Class..

 

[MikeS369]

No motor today. Makes a difference, doesn’t it?

HA! That was my exact thought at the end of todays stage. His pedaling certainly looked different.

 

[anti -e-bike]

Just so we are clear Pogacar while trying to maintain a world championship title ,a TDF title and defence, fighting off crashing, sniffles, @13 teams trying to destroy him should be abreast of current news and specifically because a guy in the news was also holding a Slovenian passport, or was born there?
I mean Pogacar is talented sure but knowing the birth status of some guy from his home country?
Sounds like if Pogacar cures cancer, immediately someone will say what took you so long? Are you lazy or what? The guy asking the question needs a drug test and press credentials verified!!!That fact that Tadej didn't toss the guy, answers like a gentleman, despite the utter stupidity and lack of relevance of the question.. Class..

blinded by the brainwash>?

 

[Ripper]

Just so we are clear Pogacar while trying to maintain a world championship title ,a TDF title and defence, fighting off crashing, sniffles, @13 teams trying to destroy him should be abreast of current news and specifically because a guy in the news was also holding a Slovenian passport, or was born there?
I mean Pogacar is talented sure but knowing the birth status of some guy from his home country?
Sounds like if Pogacar cures cancer, immediately someone will say what took you so long? Are you lazy or what? The guy asking the question needs a drug test and press credentials verified!!!That fact that Tadej didn't toss the guy, answers like a gentleman, despite the utter stupidity and lack of relevance of the question.. Class..

First, I didn't actually think anything much of Pogocar/s answer. Seemed within a normal response range. I mean, he was not slick ... but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Regarding the bolded ... what? So you are a full on supporter of omerta? The question absolutely makes sense if you can add. Rozman has ties to others on UAE. And I would hardly say the media dude was rude ... he was nearly apologetic for asking. So you believe media should absolutely not ask these kinds of questions??

 

[Rackham]

[deleted content]

I think cycling is a beautiful sport but it's ruined (actively) by riders who win too easily and dominate without any sort of natural weaknesses.

In that regard cycling as a sport has very little in common with other sports (save for f1, although in their case it's about an overpowered car ruining the competition whereas here it's legs). It means there's very little to gawk at in a cycling super performance because it's just one guy riding his bike faster than others. Once or twice a year is fine but when it's repeated with a nonchalance and smirk, on any terrain year after year, then we've got an almighty problem.

And when the likes of Tim Wellens and Nils Politt turn into terrors in their thirties themselves thanks to the same team set-up, then what the hell am I even watching. The whole thing reeks of US Postal.

 

[SorelyBoy]

First, I didn't actually think anything much of Pogocar/s answer. Seemed within a normal response range. I mean, he was not slick ... but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Regarding the bolded ... what? So you are a full on supporter of omerta? The question absolutely makes sense if you can add. Rozman has ties to others on UAE. And I would hardly say the media dude was rude ... he was nearly apologetic for asking. So you believe media should absolutely not ask these kinds of questions??

Rozman is a side show and merely further circumstantial evidence that UAE are at it. In any event, any rider in a team managed by Gianetti and which is dominating the entire cycling calendar should expect to be asked questions on doping every day of the week and twice on Sunday. The failure of the press to do so is a disgrace.

 

[DONCA]

Well, which is it, does he know him or not? This question isn't definitively answered in your post. If you're going to rely on body language interpretation, then i'll take it as a no, why? Because it's pseudoscience.

Pulled Vingegaard? Tadej rode tempo and Vingegaard was comfortable sitting on his wheel, 0 attacks. As for stage 21 today, he wasn't on the verge of victory, lol. Did you miss when he couldn't follow Wout's attack?

He knows him but not so "well". If he didn't know him, he would have said no.

That doesn't mean anything, of course, but it's still interesting that he knows him. Especially since Rozman's accomplice and doping doctor Mark S. worked for UAE in 2017. Why does he know such a dubious figure?

Yes he pulled Vingegaard. So he couldn´t have been that tired.
Sure i watched the stage. And who was the only "tired" GC guy still being able to battle for the victory? Tadej.
This Tdf was a walk in park for him.

The fact that he didn't win yesterday was due to the short distance. He wasn't able to show his superpower of “less fatigue” and the w/kg advantage wasn't enough on the short climb. Maybe he needs an even more powerful motor next year then it will definitely work with Roubaix and Milano San Remo.

And then everyone can say again what an exceptional talent he is, winning even flat races against riders with a significantly higher FTP Magic

 

[peterfin]

Pogacar transformed from that usual playful boy that wants to win it all in to a grumpy man looking forward to his retirement. What happend after the second week of the tour? Does he feel that things come too "close" and history will catch up on him? Or is UAE toning it down, trying to make him less "alien" so other teams get their chances and the program is less at risk of exposure of anyone who knows something and has enough of being beaten every day?

 

[Rackham]

Froome was actually badgered quite a lot with doping questions after every TdF he won. It's expected. Certainly at a more frequent rate when compared to these riders.

The problem with Pog is there's this entire GOAT narrative which has been successfully implemented by the marketing people in the branding whereby it's heavily implied we should all feel privileged to be witnesses to this 'spectacle'. It's a variant of the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.

 

[ppanther92]

Froome was actually badgered quite a lot with doping questions after every TdF he won. It's expected. Certainly at a more frequent rate when compared to these riders.

The problem with Pog is there's this entire GOAT narrative which has been successfully implemented by the marketing people in the branding whereby it's heavily implied we should all feel privileged to be witnesses to this 'spectacle'. It's a variant of the bigger the lie, the more people will believe it.

Well, agree - the GOAT narrative indeed helps in telling a "credible" story without getting too many critical questions. And I also don't want to warm up the whole Froome saga - but for the ridiculousness of Froome's development, I think the level of questions was anyway still low (with a strong British backing).

People often talk about blood doping really hitting the peloton with some riders simply dropping out the ranks due to not participating (or not profiting the same way) and some with meteoric rises in the late 80s and early 90s. And an often quoted example for "donkey to racehorse" was Claudio Chiappucci - was nowhere in the 80s and till age 25, and suddenly in the height of blood doping in the early 90s was one of the best.

But to draw the comparison to Froome: the "nowhere" of Chiappucci was still miles ahead of Froomes pre-transformation achievements. Froome literally turned not from a donkey but a turtle to a racehorse.

And it might be unfair (if we think that some might have just had earlier access to a good program - a case you can probably make for Pogacar) that riders that showed talent get more credit. But I also think its quite natural that they do.

But sorry for the OT.

 

[Rackham]

Well, agree - the GOAT narrative indeed helps in telling a "credible" story without getting too many critical questions. And I also don't want to warm up the whole Froome saga - but for the ridiculousness of Froome's development, I think the level of questions was anyway still low (with a strong British backing).

People often talk about blood doping really hitting the peloton with some riders simply dropping out the ranks due to not participating (or not profiting the same way) and some with meteoric rises in the late 80s and early 90s. And an often quoted example for "donkey to racehorse" was Claudio Chiappucci - was nowhere in the 80s and till age 25, and suddenly in the height of blood doping in the early 90s was one of the best.

But to draw the comparison to Froome: the "nowhere" of Chiappucci was still miles ahead of Froomes pre-transformation achievements. Froome literally turned not from a donkey but a turtle to a racehorse.

And it might be unfair (if we think that some might have just had earlier access to a good program - a case you can probably make for Pogacar) that riders that showed talent get more credit. But I also think its quite natural that they do.

But sorry for the OT.

I'll surmise the Froome era by saying any evidence of more inquisitive questioning from the press on matters relating to PED abuse was also a leftover of the Armstrong affair. All of Froome's wins happened around that time and a few years later, so it was all fresh. The critical mood surrounding doping wasn't just about him or Sky per se, it was about the epoch he raced in. The real scandal with Froome happened after his positive salbutamol bust at which point it appeared the media in its ensemble was more afraid of litigation than calling a spade a spade. They totally backed off and now they sugercoat the man whenever he makes a (rare) appearance.

So these days it's almost all locked down. There's very little questioning going on. In fact there was way more questioning of Pog back in 2020 and 2021 (after LPdBF and Le Grand Bornand). I also saw way more people question Vingegaard after Combloux ITT 2023 for example than we've seen going after Pog in this Tour.

It's like the media and followers have just gotten blasé about it all and rolls with the punches, which is pretty much where everyone was back in 1997.

 

[SorelyBoy]

I'll surmise the Froome era by saying any evidence of more inquisitive questioning from the press on matters relating to PED abuse was also a leftover of the Armstrong affair. All of Froome's wins happened around that time and a few years later, so it was all fresh. The critical mood surrounding doping wasn't just about him or Sky per se, it was about the epoch he raced in. The real scandal with Froome happened after his positive salbutamol bust at which point it appeared the media in its ensemble was more afraid of litigation than calling a spade a spade. They totally backed off and now they sugercoat the man whenever he makes a (rare) appearance.

So these days it's almost all locked down. There's very little questioning going on. In fact there was way more questioning of Pog back in 2020 and 2021 (after LPdBF and Le Grand Bornand). I also saw way more people question Vingegaard after Combloux ITT 2023 for example than we've seen going after Pog in this Tour.

It's like the media and followers have just gotten blasé about it all and rolls with the punches, which is pretty much where everyone was back in 1997.

As I’ve said before, any comparisons of Pogacar to Froome/Wiggins, of now to then, are weakened by the fact that cycling just looked and felt different back then. Totally clean, no of course not. Gianetti and co were still tinkering for instance. But overall everyone of the top guys were pretty close. Races were close, everyone on or near the limit keeping the attacks short. No one was doing a Hautacam or Planche des Belles Filles, or racing the entire calendar and ripping everyone a new one. And yet Froome was being treated like the second coming of Armstrong by everyone including the press, with constant abuse and urine bags being hurled at him on the mountain stages. We’ve not seen that level of vitriol being displayed against Pogacar. Maybe we saw the first signs of some trouble stirring his year, and combined with the other reported stuff perhaps Pogacar can see what might be coming for him. Perhaps he’s uneasy that he might be thrown under the bus, like other Gianetti riders. Watch this space I guess.

 

[Rackham]

Yes, it's so strange I sense a great conspiracy here. It's just pas normal to have so many people seeking clarification when a single rider demolishes classics + GT's with a finger up is nose year after year. It's gotta be some sort of dirty agenda to discredit Pog and UAE. Somewhere right now, the Cobra is nodding in agreement. I just know it.

 

[dr.eve]

Yes, it's so strange I sense a great conspiracy here. It's just pas normal to have so many people seeking clarification when a single rider demolishes classics + GT's with a finger up is nose year after year. It's gotta be some sort of dirty agenda to discredit Pog and UAE. Somewhere right now, the Cobra is nodding in agreement. I just know it.

Yes so true... Im getting my tinfoil hat out 🤣

Though I do get it a bit, on the one hand this type of sections (the clinic) are always prone to conspiracies or people that may take a detour too many.

However if we knew everything and had no history as we have in cycling then this section would not be here now. Sadly that's not the case.

And on the other hand, people not liking these discussions, well this is the place for it and they don't need to read it. Questioning Pogacar is hardly 'bashing' on him as a person when you look at Gianetti. Sure I get that it needs to remain civil, but discussinh one's character is also important when looking at doping I guess. Everyone does it all the time with Armstrong and it does matter how someone responds to questions.

I completely agree with the Froome comparison. All critics in media seem to be gone or silent. Yesterday it was even mentioned on Dutch Eurosport commentary during the race: "if you can not value Pogacar's immense talent then you are no cycling fan" or something along those lines. It was very odd to hear this and very much in line of "bow to the GOAT, our messiah."

 

[noob]

Yes so true... Im getting my tinfoil hat out 🤣

Though I do get it a bit, on the one hand this type of sections (the clinic) are always prone to conspiracies or people that may take a detour too many.

However if we knew everything and had no history as we have in cycling then this section would not be here now. Sadly that's not the case.

And on the other hand, people not liking these discussions, well this is the place for it and they don't need to read it. Questioning Pogacar is hardly 'bashing' on him as a person when you look at Gianetti. Sure I get that it needs to remain civil, but discussinh one's character is also important when looking at doping I guess. Everyone does it all the time with Armstrong and it does matter how someone responds to questions.

I completely agree with the Froome comparison. All critics in media seem to be gone or silent. Yesterday it was even mentioned on Dutch Eurosport commentary during the race: "if you can not value Pogacar's immense talent then you are no cycling fan" or something along those lines. It was very odd to hear this and very much in line of "bow to the GOAT, our messiah."

Character discussions is utterly important when it comes to finding out who will dope what, who will become the wistle blower etc etc.

That's the reason I joined this forum once upon a time It's not the reason I stayer (I stayed for the lovely people here (no irony!!!).