Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[SorelyBoy]

I'll surmise the Froome era by saying any evidence of more inquisitive questioning from the press on matters relating to PED abuse was also a leftover of the Armstrong affair. All of Froome's wins happened around that time and a few years later, so it was all fresh. The critical mood surrounding doping wasn't just about him or Sky per se, it was about the epoch he raced in. The real scandal with Froome happened after his positive salbutamol bust at which point it appeared the media in its ensemble was more afraid of litigation than calling a spade a spade. They totally backed off and now they sugercoat the man whenever he makes a (rare) appearance.

So these days it's almost all locked down. There's very little questioning going on. In fact there was way more questioning of Pog back in 2020 and 2021 (after LPdBF and Le Grand Bornand). I also saw way more people question Vingegaard after Combloux ITT 2023 for example than we've seen going after Pog in this Tour.

It's like the media and followers have just gotten blasé about it all and rolls with the punches, which is pretty much where everyone was back in 1997.

As I’ve said before, any comparisons of Pogacar to Froome/Wiggins, of now to then, are weakened by the fact that cycling just looked and felt different back then. Totally clean, no of course not. Gianetti and co were still tinkering for instance. But overall everyone of the top guys were pretty close. Races were close, everyone on or near the limit keeping the attacks short. No one was doing a Hautacam or Planche des Belles Filles, or racing the entire calendar and ripping everyone a new one. And yet Froome was being treated like the second coming of Armstrong by everyone including the press, with constant abuse and urine bags being hurled at him on the mountain stages. We’ve not seen that level of vitriol being displayed against Pogacar. Maybe we saw the first signs of some trouble stirring his year, and combined with the other reported stuff perhaps Pogacar can see what might be coming for him. Perhaps he’s uneasy that he might be thrown under the bus, like other Gianetti riders. Watch this space I guess.

 

[Rackham]

Yes, it's so strange I sense a great conspiracy here. It's just pas normal to have so many people seeking clarification when a single rider demolishes classics + GT's with a finger up is nose year after year. It's gotta be some sort of dirty agenda to discredit Pog and UAE. Somewhere right now, the Cobra is nodding in agreement. I just know it.

 

[dr.eve]

Yes, it's so strange I sense a great conspiracy here. It's just pas normal to have so many people seeking clarification when a single rider demolishes classics + GT's with a finger up is nose year after year. It's gotta be some sort of dirty agenda to discredit Pog and UAE. Somewhere right now, the Cobra is nodding in agreement. I just know it.

Yes so true... Im getting my tinfoil hat out 🤣

Though I do get it a bit, on the one hand this type of sections (the clinic) are always prone to conspiracies or people that may take a detour too many.

However if we knew everything and had no history as we have in cycling then this section would not be here now. Sadly that's not the case.

And on the other hand, people not liking these discussions, well this is the place for it and they don't need to read it. Questioning Pogacar is hardly 'bashing' on him as a person when you look at Gianetti. Sure I get that it needs to remain civil, but discussinh one's character is also important when looking at doping I guess. Everyone does it all the time with Armstrong and it does matter how someone responds to questions.

I completely agree with the Froome comparison. All critics in media seem to be gone or silent. Yesterday it was even mentioned on Dutch Eurosport commentary during the race: "if you can not value Pogacar's immense talent then you are no cycling fan" or something along those lines. It was very odd to hear this and very much in line of "bow to the GOAT, our messiah."

 

[noob]

Yes so true... Im getting my tinfoil hat out 🤣

Though I do get it a bit, on the one hand this type of sections (the clinic) are always prone to conspiracies or people that may take a detour too many.

However if we knew everything and had no history as we have in cycling then this section would not be here now. Sadly that's not the case.

And on the other hand, people not liking these discussions, well this is the place for it and they don't need to read it. Questioning Pogacar is hardly 'bashing' on him as a person when you look at Gianetti. Sure I get that it needs to remain civil, but discussinh one's character is also important when looking at doping I guess. Everyone does it all the time with Armstrong and it does matter how someone responds to questions.

I completely agree with the Froome comparison. All critics in media seem to be gone or silent. Yesterday it was even mentioned on Dutch Eurosport commentary during the race: "if you can not value Pogacar's immense talent then you are no cycling fan" or something along those lines. It was very odd to hear this and very much in line of "bow to the GOAT, our messiah."

Character discussions is utterly important when it comes to finding out who will dope what, who will become the wistle blower etc etc.

That's the reason I joined this forum once upon a time It's not the reason I stayer (I stayed for the lovely people here (no irony!!!).

 

[Red Rick]

Sky was a huge direct parallel to US Postal, and marginal gainz/being cleanz was a huge part of their marketing as well. Like it was big for a domestic audience but everyone who had seen Armstrong just felt pissed in the face a little bit.

And I honestly cannot stress the importance of first impressions enough here. Sky went from being founded in 2010 to completely failing in 2011 to completely dominating the TdF starting in 2012, and that Tour itself was probably the most boring Tour in living memory at that point. Contador was banned, Schleck wasn't there, Cadel Evans washed up instantly after winning in 2011, Nibali was slowly getting better but hadn't hit the levels yet he would hit at Astana, and Quintana would race his first GT in the Vuelta that same year.

Pogacar meanwhile grew into dominance at least somewhat gradually, with his first WTF moment on Planche de Belles Filles being cathartic for many because they had been bored and tiled and PTSD'd by LottoNL Jumbo copying the Sky playbook. He then dominated a year later but at least Vingegaard showed up proving to be a future thread, and right when it might threaten to start being boring, he lost the next two TdFs.

Without Vingegaard and to a lesser extent MvdP, anyone that isn't a one man cycling fan would have been bored out of their mind years ago

 

[noob]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1949532251336655026

View: https://x.com/LeGruppetto/status/1949532251336655026


Re character and dominance this matters.

 

[pelotonIQ]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1949532251336655026

View: https://x.com/LeGruppetto/status/1949532251336655026


Re character and dominance this matters.

It's a very common tactic to get a higher salary before contract extention talks, he is just planting the seed. Otherwise I don't see any reason hint about retiring soon.

 

[repoman]

It’s just double standards is what it is. You can’t be disgusted by Pog’s alleged cheating while at the same time being totally cool with a 100% proven albeit a bit less effective (in absolute terms) form of cheating.

I don’t linger here much because I find this place to have much more to do with hate towards certain riders than expressing disgust over doping in general. But every now and then I will call out an absolute *** when I read it…

Back in those days, there was no real stigma around doping. It's basically a gradient, even in the early 90s to 00s the stigma wasn't that large. Social media didn't exist back then so the public shaming wasn't really a thing. The public outrage over Armstrong in many ways was orchestrated by mainstream media as a story to sell. These days the culture around pro-cycling from the publics perspective is extremely puritanical now, so the indictment of guilt or how bad doping is now is far greater than in the past.
I think there is a greater variation in how people of different countries perceive doping, with the US probably the most puritanical these days...South American countries and East European have a much more laissez faire attitude.

 

[Unchained]

[deleted content]

I will go with it ..but there appears to be something humanitarian in the Tadej soul, he has helped half dozen get into a program and he has said he has a multi year friendship with Thymen Arensman, so if I am taking bets, a dirty employee of the team is different than Pogacar throwing shade on a friend, who just happened to take 2 out of 21 stages at TDF despite a cheesy support system!!. Surely his federation outreach helping young Slovenian racers progress might have a bump here or there.. Pogacar is responsible if someone staff or rider gets popped? Guy says every chance he gets he hates chitty weather.. Probably not in a hurry for cold winters.. I hope someone asks me about some recent criminal arrest in Scottsdale!! I am going to act like I know everything, everyone!!
The premise that Pogacar would want details, names about Ineos incest is absolutely crazy.. Why would he care!!?

First, I didn't actually think anything much of Pogocar/s answer. Seemed within a normal response range. I mean, he was not slick ... but that is not necessarily a bad thing.

Regarding the bolded ... what? So you are a full on supporter of omerta? The question absolutely makes sense if you can add. Rozman has ties to others on UAE. And I would hardly say the media dude was rude ... he was nearly apologetic for asking. So you believe media should absolutely not ask these kinds of questions??

Why in the world, meaning literally on the planet would a 26 year old professional athlete who lives primarily outside of Slovenia, travels extensively for his job ,spends months a year in buses, hotels and rental properties, airports and airplanes, spends 30-50 hours a week training and doing work related things, like testing, massage, cross training, stretching, yoga..why would that guy Pogacar randomly know, know about one of 2 million+ people in Slovenia?
That makes sense to you?
Western wasteland of knowledge is portraying Slovenia as a tiny village where everyone knows each other?
Why not ask Pogacar diet, dating habits, sexual orientation, travel or sleep habits of someone he doesn't know.. The answers to all of those crazy random questions will be as accurate.
If Pogacar being a gentleman, a professional is forced to answer a question about a random person that's wrong. If the" journalist" wanted to ask a question.. Don't load it up, make it a question, not a narrative..
Do you know Mr.X from Ineos? Pog answers no..everyone moves on..
the " journalist " goes on about scandal, doping, dismissal without first establishing if Pogacar even knows the guy.. Completely ridiculous!! Trying to tie Tadej to a guy he doesn't know because they come from the same country of 2+ million people is insane..
If someone walks up and says. I have a cousin named James who lives in Phoenix, Los Angeles, Dallas, Frankfurt, London, you just smile and walk away.. The statement \ question is stupid..
If the " journalist " wanted to ask Tadej if he knows ex Ineos employee.. OK.. It's a stretch but OK.. and when he answers no..end..not another add on..

 

[Unchained]

blinded by the brainwash>?

Guy wins 4th TDF, is current world champion and at post race interview the best formed question, hey do you know an ex employee over at Ineos and what he did years ago at Sky to get fired? You should know because he is from Slovania

 

[noob]

I will go with it ..but there appears to be something humanitarian in the Tadej soul, he has helped half dozen get into a program and he has said he has a multi year friendship with Thymen Arensman, so if I am taking bets, a dirty employee of the team is different than Pogacar throwing shade on a friend, who just happened to take 2 out of 21 stages at TDF despite a cheesy support system!!. Surely his federation outreach helping young Slovenian racers progress might have a bump here or there.. Pogacar is responsible if someone staff or rider gets popped? Guy says every chance he gets he hates chitty weather.. Probably not in a hurry for cold winters.. I hope someone asks me about some recent criminal arrest in Scottsdale!! I am going to act like I know everything, everyone!!
The premise that Pogacar would want details, names about Ineos incest is absolutely crazy.. Why would he care!!?

Why in the world, meaning literally on the planet would a 26 year old professional athlete who lives primarily outside of Slovenia, travels extensively for his job ,spends months a year in buses, hotels and rental properties, airports and airplanes, spends 30-50 hours a week training and doing work related things, like testing, massage, cross training, stretching, yoga..why would that guy Pogacar randomly know, know about one of 2 million+ people in Slovenia?
That makes sense to you?
Western wasteland of knowledge is portraying Slovenia as a tiny village where everyone knows each other?
Why not ask Pogacar diet, dating habits, sexual orientation, travel or sleep habits of someone he doesn't know.. The answers to all of those crazy random questions will be as accurate.
If Pogacar being a gentleman, a professional is forced to answer a question about a random person that's wrong. If the" journalist" wanted to ask a question.. Don't load it up, make it a question, not a narrative..
Do you know Mr.X from Ineos? Pog answers no..everyone moves on..
the " journalist " goes on about scandal, doping, dismissal without first establishing if Pogacar even knows the guy.. Completely ridiculous!! Trying to tie Tadej to a guy he doesn't know because they come from the same country of 2+ million people is insane..
If someone walks up and says. I have a cousin named James who lives in Phoenix, Los Angeles, Dallas, Frankfurt, London, you just smile and walk away.. The statement \ question is stupid..
If the " journalist " wanted to ask Tadej if he knows ex Ineos employee.. OK.. It's a stretch but OK.. and when he answers no..end..not another add on..

I didn't know the cycling scene in Slovenia involved the whole Slovenian population.

 

[Unchained]

I didn't know the cycling scene in Slovenia involved the whole Slovenian population.

What cycling scene? The dates don't, can't cross!! Pogacar has been a traveling professional since 2017!! He should have finger on the pulse of tiny, tiny federation in Slovenia, and WT pro Sky\Ineos and do his day job at UAE?
Wait what?
These are professionals not coffee shop commandos!! Why not try to dial it back.. Step away 2,3 focal lengths.. Does Pogacar know what Juan Ayuso is doing? Eating, talking to, training with? Likely not.. Why would he know anything about the inner working of Sky- Ineos organization?
Does Pogacar know what Del Toro or Jan Christen is doing? Today, yesterday, last week, last month? Or the other way around? No

 

[Unchained]

I didn't know the cycling scene in Slovenia involved the whole Slovenian population.

Your point is the point, Pogacar doesn't know the guy, regardless of where he is from, where he worked.

 

[noob]

What cycling scene? The dates don't, can't cross!! Pogacar has been a traveling professional since 2017!! He should have finger on the pulse of tiny, tiny federation in Slovenia, and WT pro Sky\Ineos and do his day job at UAE?
Wait what?
These are professionals not coffee shop commandos!! Why not try to dial it back.. Step away 2,3 focal lengths.. Does Pogacar know what Juan Ayuso is doing? Eating, talking to, training with? Likely not.. Why would he know anything about the inner working of Sky- Ineos organization?
Does Pogacar know what Del Toro or Jan Christen is doing? Today, yesterday, last week, last month? Or the other way around? No

No one is asking him if he's his friend. "How good do you know Rozman, because he's also Slovenian" is a relevant question to ask for a journalist. It's also the kind of question the audience might ask themselves in front of their TV. Part of the work of the journalist is to ask questions audiences wants answered.

 

[pelotonIQ]

I'd understand the journalists reasoning if Rozman was a previous colleague to Pogacar but he's not so the only logical conslusion is that the question was asked to Pogacar because they're from the same country. Very bizarre that the journalist targeted Pogacar with such question and not Ineos riders whom are colleagues and personally know Rozman.

 

[Unchained]

List of relevant questions to ask Tadej Pogacar after TDF victory:
Have you talked with Peter Sagan about his hotel occupancy rate?
Why did Time bicycles pick there current manufacturing location?
Are you good at golf? Are you thinking about switching from bike racing to pro golf for the 2027 season?
Have you ever considered a career as a professional chef? That's a tradition in Slovenia right?
Do you have plans to enter the priesthood? They have priests in Slovenia right?
Have you ever thought about opening a Grenadier car dealership in Slovenia? You do know about Ineos right?

 

[Blobs]

Your point is the point, Pogacar doesn't know the guy, regardless of where he is from, where he worked.

He didn't say he didn't know him though. He said he didn't know him so well, implying that he does know him, just not very well.

 

[Unchained]

No one is asking him if he's his friend. "How good do you know Rozman, because he's also Slovenian" is a relevant question to ask for a journalist. It's also the kind of question the audience might ask themselves in front of their TV. Part of the work of the journalist is to ask questions audiences wants answered.

Rozman was canned for doping allegations from 2012..did you check how old Tadej Pogacar was in 2012? Better to ask parents of Pogacar if they let a stranger from England talk to their child about dooing or anything else back in 2012 or years before!! Absolute lunacy that some numb skull clown doing an interview could attempt a connection between today and 2012 alleged incident in a pro cycling team, Pogacar has nothing to do with..!!

 

[topcat]

He didn't say he didn't know him though. He said he didn't know him so well, implying that he does know him, just not very well.

He doesn't know him well enough to get a massage from him.

 

[noob]

Rozman was canned for doping allegations from 2012..did you check how old Tadej Pogacar was in 2012? Better to ask parents of Pogacar if they let a stranger from England talk to their child about dooing or anything else back in 2012 or years before!! Absolute lunacy that some numb skull clown doing an interview could attempt a connection between today and 2012 alleged incident in a pro cycling team, Pogacar has nothing to do with..!!

You see everything from the inside. That's not neccesarily relevant to the audience watching. A journalist shouldn't ask questions from the inside or he/she is not doing journalist work, but PR work.

Example; David Walsh was a journalist in regards to Armstrong. His work in regards to Sky ended up resembling more of PR.

(English is not my first language)

 

[Unchained]

My wife and I, ...3,4 other people took photos with Tadej at Tour of California, same with Julian Alaphilippe, Peter Sagan!!
That does not mean we know each other or are friends..
Because you say hi to someone in your language or another tongue, still very, very lose association.. I have spoken to others in their language and they are likely to remember me for a butchered attempt.
I can see in passing Pog and Rozman exchanging pleasantries in Slovenian dialect.. Doesn't sound so crazy..
And although I find the question asked completely idiotic because of when it was asked and where.. There could be a time when Pogacar could elaborate.. But not in 2nd,3rd week at TDF press outing!! Completely wrong and out of bounds , poor taste, even poorer timing. My big issue is the stupidity of gotcha question attempts because you are underfunded, unrecognized, unprofessional.. the question can make sense if you know you have no money, no credibility or credentials to get another post Tour win interview with Tadej. It's a hail Mary attempt.. I get it.. Got one chance make it a nuclear question!!

 

[Unchained]

You see everything from the inside. That's not neccesarily relevant to the audience watching. A journalist shouldn't ask questions from the inside or he/she is not doing journalist work, but PR work.

Example; David Walsh was a journalist in regards to Armstrong. His work in regards to Sky ended up resembling more of PR.

(English is not my first language)

If English is not your first language, you use it very very well. You are absolutely wrong about David Walsh and half dozen others who were close to the goal but couldn't score for years. Everyone knew Armstrong and others were gassed to the gills but couldn't get anyone to talk on record and that would likely include incriminating themselves in the process. It's all a lie, all are liars. Walsh could have had his story in an instant if any one of the revisionist lying sacks of chit had piped up. Whining Frankie Andreu, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, dozen or more also all knew and didn't say anything until they were forced to or there was desperately needed money in tattling !!
Walsh was hot on the trail because of mountains of circumstantial evidence.. He couldn't believe his eyes it was out in the open, all way from ASO, UCI and all the sponsors, nobody would talk.. No Nike or Trek executives were in a hurry to be unemployed and maybe go to prison.. Landis only became a whistleblower because Lance wouldn't give him a job!!
I understand that if you are a writer a mystery or who done it is alluring!! Makes sense.. Asking Pogacar at the TDF about something that happened in 2012( or before) at another team, in a different country is a stretch..
Team Armstrong's drug use was a open secret, Walsh was pissed off for years that nobody had the courage to step forward.. And in the end nobody did anyway.. Lots of the rope around Lance's neck came from Frankie Andreu lying to his wife about him shooting up to stay employed and competitive. Betsy might of been blown away surprised at what she heard in hospital at Armstrong's bedside.. But her husband knew all that schit, he was living it!!

 

[bah]

If English is not your first language, you use it very very well. You are absolutely wrong about David Walsh and half dozen others who were close to the goal but couldn't score for years. Everyone knew Armstrong and others were gassed to the gills but couldn't get anyone to talk on record and that would likely include incriminating themselves in the process. It's all a lie, all are liars. Walsh could have had his story in an instant if any one of the revisionist lying sacks of chit had piped up. Whining Frankie Andreu, Tyler Hamilton, Floyd Landis, dozen or more also all knew and didn't say anything until they were forced to or there was desperately needed money in tattling !!
Walsh was hot on the trail because of mountains of circumstantial evidence.. He couldn't believe his eyes it was out in the open, all way from ASO, UCI and all the sponsors, nobody would talk.. No Nike or Trek executives were in a hurry to be unemployed and maybe go to prison.. Landis only became a whistleblower because Lance wouldn't give him a job!!
I understand that if you are a writer a mystery or who done it is alluring!! Makes sense.. Asking Pogacar at the TDF about something that happened in 2012( or before) at another team, in a different country is a stretch..
Team Armstrong's drug use was a open secret, Walsh was pissed off for years that nobody had the courage to step forward.. And in the end nobody did anyway.. Lots of the rope around Lance's neck came from Frankie Andreu lying to his wife about him shooting up to stay employed and competitive. Betsy might of been blown away surprised at what she heard in hospital at Armstrong's bedside.. But her husband knew all that schit, he was living it!!

How did everyone know?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

these days it's almost all locked down. There's very little questioning going on. In fact there was way more questioning of Pog back in 2020 and 2021 (after LPdBF and Le Grand Bornand). I also saw way more people question Vingegaard after Combloux ITT 2023 for example than we've seen going after Pog in this Tour.

It's true. Pogacar had a lot of doping question during his long reign in yellow in 2021. Also in 2023 with Vingo after the miraclous TT. Now basically no rumours and no questions. There can be only one explanation: those guys must really be riding paniagua.

 

[dr.eve]

List of relevant questions to ask Tadej Pogacar after TDF victory:
Have you talked with Peter Sagan about his hotel occupancy rate?
Why did Time bicycles pick there current manufacturing location?
Are you good at golf? Are you thinking about switching from bike racing to pro golf for the 2027 season?
Have you ever considered a career as a professional chef? That's a tradition in Slovenia right?
Do you have plans to enter the priesthood? They have priests in Slovenia right?
Have you ever thought about opening a Grenadier car dealership in Slovenia? You do know about Ineos right?

I get why you think asking Pogacar about Rozman, since their both Slovenian, is irrelevant to you. Because you appear to not know that Sagan is Slovakian and not Slovenian.