Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Netserk]

Its said that Froomey ran faster than lions back in Africa before he got that godzilla disease. He still recovered well and won 4 Tours (next year epic battle for 5th vs Pogi).

He has better odds of claiming 2012.

 

[ashhutch1997]

This constant thinking on doping, totally ignoring his change of coach is what makes this thread unreadable sometimes.
Is he doping? Of course. Nothing changed after 2023 when we talk about doping. But I can assure you his training methods improved massively but some here just like to hate and try to ignore his change in coaching at all costs.

I understand a new coach and training methods will help a rider improve by a few percent. But come on, you can have the best coach in the world but being on form full gas from February to October just isn't human, Im sorry. He doesn't show any signs of building form or fatigue, it just isn't normal and has never been seen before.
After the humiliation of Combloux, drastic changes were made, and a new coach doesn't explain it, there's more to it.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I think the "new training" excuse rubs people the wrong way because when he was already insanely good between 2020-23, there was no end to the "San Millan is a genius! Z2!!!" narrative, but now when there's a need to explain another massive jump in performance, he's suddenly a hack.

You can look to Ayuso, another rider coached by San Milan.
Vingegaard improved more between 2020-2023 compared to Pogacar for example so I don't know where San Milan is/was considered a genius. Specially when it is known Pogacar wasn't doing heat training and strenght training. San Milan is a researcher/teacher (they are important though), not a coach. Sola is a worldclass endurance coach. He is on the "field" with multiple athletes from cycling and triathlon.
João is also coached by Sola (and a portuguese physiologist. It's a team work) since 2024 and it's notorious his improvement.
Are they doping? Of course, but I don't see UAE in front of teams like RB, Lidl, Visma for example. Not just in doping, in other areas like nutrition, aerodynamics (e.g. TT setup), I don't see them in front of other top teams.

 

[Peyroteo94]

He has better odds of claiming 2012.

There isn't a 10 years rule? Like Riis didn't lost his TdF because he admitted he was doping more than 10 years later.

 

[Netserk]

There isn't a 10 years rule? Like Riis didn't lost his TdF because he admitted he was doping more than 10 years later.

They managed to go past that for Armstrong, but I don't recall why exactly.

 

[ontheroad]

This constant thinking on doping, totally ignoring his change of coach is what makes this thread unreadable sometimes.
Is he doping? Of course. Nothing changed after 2023 when we talk about doping. But I can assure you his training methods improved massively but some here just like to hate and try to ignore his change in coaching at all costs.

Any gains made by changing training methods will be very very marginal at that top elite level of the sport. He was already arguably the top rider in the world but since early 2024 he has gone to another stratosphere. None of that can be explained by training methods which is only a useful cover story for the rider to explain the turbo boost.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I understand a new coach and training methods will help a rider improve by a few percent. But come on, you can have the best coach in the world but being on form full gas from February to October just isn't human, Im sorry. He doesn't show any signs of building form or fatigue, it just isn't normal and has never been seen before.
After the humiliation of Combloux, drastic changes were made, and a new coach doesn't explain it, there's more to it.

That's doping but Pogacar since 2021 has been good all season. In 2023, if he didn't crash, I'm pretty sure he would be a lot better but he still dominate the field in the spring, went toe and toe with Vingegaard in the Tour and even if he was exhausted, he won GdL.
2022 he was good all season.
2021 the same.

Tell me a year where he wasn't good in the spring or July or October. You will not find.
His level of course is better now and for that reason he no longer has competition.

 

[Peyroteo94]

They managed to go past that for Armstrong, but I don't recall why exactly.

Maybe because most TdF wins were not 10 years earlier than 2011 (or 2012. Time flies, I don't even know).

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

You can look to Ayuso, another rider coached by San Milan.
Vingegaard improved more between 2020-2023 compared to Pogacar for example so I don't know where San Milan is/was considered a genius. Specially when it is known Pogacar wasn't doing heat training and strenght training. San Milan is a researcher/teacher (they are important though), not a coach. Sola is a worldclass endurance coach. He is on the "field" with multiple athletes from cycling and triathlon.
João is also coached by Sola (and a portuguese physiologist. It's a team work) since 2024 and it's notorious his improvement.
Are they doping? Of course, but I don't see UAE in front of teams like RB, Lidl, Visma for example. Not just in doping, in other areas like nutrition, aerodynamics (e.g. TT setup), I don't see them in front of other top teams.

I don't believe in the "genius" of San Millan, i'm talking about the narrative that was pushed at the time, it was all over youtube/the press.
Everyone improved greatly at UAE the last two seasons, Pogacar did nearly 7.2W/kg on the Ganda yesterday, he was doing 6.4 in 2023. That can't be explained by training/nutrition alone unless he was training like in the 30's before Sola.

 

[Peyroteo94]

I don't believe in the "genius" of San Millan, i'm talking about the narrative that was pushed at the time, it was all over youtube/the press.
Everyone improved greatly at UAE the last two seasons, Pogacar did nearly 7.2W/kg on the Ganda yesterday, he was doing 6.4 in 2023. That can't be explained by training/nutrition alone unless he was training like in the 30's before Sola.

Please don't lie. You can disagree with me but don't disturb facts.
Ayuso and Yates didn't improve greatly. And Yates is not that old. He is 33 and his brother won a Giro this season.
Probably you are just talking about Almeida and Pogacar. Both were coached by San Milan.
Those numbers are really off charts, big improvements. But I can tell you a lot of top riders improved their numbers a lot between 2023-2024. Remco, Vingegaard (after a nasty crash), Roglic in the 2024 Vuelta, MVP, Landa, etc. A lot of riders from different teams. So don't tell me it's just UAE who improved massively their doping program. It's not true. They simply have more talent and more depth in their team and for that reason they win more (they also farm a lot of races).

 

[Netserk]

Those numbers are really off charts, big improvements. But I can tell you a lot of top riders improved their numbers a lot between 2023-2024. Remco, Vingegaard (after a nasty crash), Roglic in the 2024 Vuelta, MVP, Landa, etc. A lot of riders from different teams. So don't tell me it's just UAE who improved massively their doping program. It's not true.

A lot of people dope and learn to dope better. That's not a refutation of UAE also learning to dope better.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Please don't lie. You can disagree with me but don't disturb facts.
Ayuso and Yates didn't improve greatly. And Yates is not that old. He is 33 and his brother won a Giro this season.
Probably you are just talking about Almeida and Pogacar. Both were coached by San Milan.
Those numbers are really off charts, big improvements. But I can tell you a lot of top riders improved their numbers a lot between 2023-2024. Remco, Vingegaard (after a nasty crash), Roglic in the 2024 Vuelta, MVP, Landa, etc. A lot of riders from different teams. So don't tell me it's just UAE who improved massively their doping program. It's not true. They simply have more talent and more depth in their team and for that reason they win more (they also farm a lot of races).

Ayuso and Yates that's fair enough, but there are other reasons why those two kinda stagnated, everyone else is killing it. Are you going to argue that Politt and Del toro aren't ridiculous? Mc Nulty? Vine? Uae is even more blatant that Visma was in 2022 nowadays, and yes they are farming races, but so does every team that rakes up a great tally of wins during a season, the fact that they are farming wins in small races without a proper sprinter is another ludicrous thing they are doing.
Calling me a liar because you've found two counter example on their 30 rider roster is hardly a good start for a productive interaction BTW, i'll leave it at that.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Ayuso and Yates that's fair enough, but there are other reasons why those two kinda stagnated, everyone else is killing it. Are you going to argue that Politt and Del toro aren't ridiculous? Mc Nulty? Vine? Uae is even more blatant that Visma was in 2022 nowadays, and yes they are farming races, but so does every team that rakes up a great tally of wins during a season, the fact that they are farming wins in small races without a proper sprinter is another ludicrous thing they are doing.
Calling me a liar because you've found two counter example on their 30 rider roster is hardly a good start for a productive interaction BTW, i'll leave it at that.

I gave you 2 examples of probably 10 riders but I could give more.
Vine was doing what exactly? He is a watts monster like we saw in the Covid. UAE bought him after his monster performance in the 2022 Vuelta where he was in Alpecin. What did Vine show that screams massive improvement? I don't see him win big races.
McNulty never did a similar performance to what he did on 2022 Peyragudes. What big win did he get or what performance he had on big races that show to you he improved massively?
McNulty was close to win 2021 Pais Vasco btw. Don't tell me he was a random guy before 2024...
Your argument is not reliable and you can't see that.

 

[BubbaChuck]

numbers tell the truth,pogacar is better tahn anyone else juice,no juice.pog is winning in high or low watts environment.it doesnot matter,if they push 7 watts per kilo or 6,pog will win by minute.look at giro in 24,hilarius numbers ,yet still 10 minutes.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Maybe because most TdF wins were not 10 years earlier than 2011 (or 2012. Time flies, I don't even know).

Maybe the best way for Pogi is to win the 5th Tour and retire immediately. Better not to tempt fate by going for the record.

 

[BubbaChuck]

for example vinge cant win in low watts environment,unless competition is continental.remco si also in that territory on climbs,lmaoo.he can win on flat without juice,but not on climbs.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

numbers tell the truth,pogacar is better tahn anyone else juice,no juice.pog is winning in high or low watts environment.it doesnot matter,if they push 7 watts per kilo or 6,pog will win by minute.look at giro in 24,hilarius numbers ,yet still 10 minutes.

His biggest rival in the Giro was Red Bull's sixth strongest GC rider. What the hell are you talking about, dude?

 

[BubbaChuck]

bahhha,completelly besides the point,but ok.tahst why it was 10 minute with chilastic pace.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I gave you 2 examples of probably 10 riders but I could give more.
Vine was doing what exactly? He is a watts monster like we saw in the Covid. UAE bought him after his monster performance in the 2022 Vuelta where he was in Alpecin. What did Vine show that screams massive improvement? I don't see him win big races.
McNulty never did a similar performance to what he did on 2022 Peyragudes. What big win did he get or what performance he had on big races that show to you he improved massively?
McNulty was close to win 2021 Pais Vasco btw. Don't tell me he was a random guy before 2024...
Your argument is not reliable and you can't see that.

Vine has three times the number of PCS point in 2025 he had in the past seasons, Mc Nulty has more than doubled his tally from the past since 2024. UAE as a whole had their best season by far in 2024 (coming from what was already their best season ever in 2023) and they are going to do even better in 2025.
But this is hopeless, you're putting words in my mouth ("Mc Nulty was a random guy", when did i ever say that ffs), and conveniently glossing over half what's said in my posts.

Apparently seeing three UAE + Pogacar during the last climb when everybody else is alone, and those teammates still be able top go for the top 10 when their work is done is "completly normal phenomenon, they just have more money!!!", Pogacar getting a 10%+ power boost since 2023 is "new coach" and the management/power structure of UAE looking like somtething out of an episode of the Sopranos is fine.
And i'm the one with "unreliable arguments".

 

[Red Rick]

Hard to see why it needs to be either or in terms of managers being masterminds producing god tier athletes in a a laboratory or they turnover riders, find a good responder, and then up the dose sky high.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

The dude comes up with a narrative that Vingegaard couldn't beat Dani Martinez by 10 minutes in a three-week race without breaking a sweat.

That's the level here, folks.

 

[ashhutch1997]

That's doping but Pogacar since 2021 has been good all season. In 2023, if he didn't crash, I'm pretty sure he would be a lot better but he still dominate the field in the spring, went toe and toe with Vingegaard in the Tour and even if he was exhausted, he won GdL.
2022 he was good all season.
2021 the same.

Tell me a year where he wasn't good in the spring or July or October. You will not find.
His level of course is better now and for that reason he no longer has competition.

You raise some good points, you I just won't agree with that statement. Yes, he was good all season in 2021-23, but he showed signs of being human, and actually showed he was suffering. He was winning races but wasn't destroying the oposition in every single race.
From 2024 onwards he's turned up to almost to every race all year and had obliterated the field in every race without even getting out of breath. He literally did back to back Landis style raids and had normised attacking 80k out, and then turns up week in week out as fresh as a daisy. It isn't normal and it's become a complete clown show.

 

[Extinction]

Dead sport. They got too good at this and pro-cycling has become Ouroboros.

Indeed, the snake that devours itself, a symbol of time's inexorability to consume temporality, and the alchemical opus circulatorium of the Great Work; a rotation of the four elements, a conjunction of opposites, earth to air, water to fire, by which transmutation into gold occurs. I dare say the magus, Gianetti, has been up to something for a while and Taddei his "prima materia."

 

[Gianetti_Is_The_Goat]

Plenty. I merely responded to a comment claiming Pogacar showed no pain or effort when he attacked. Clearly untrue.

Take it to the UCI or a journalist you are not going to solve Pogacar or Gianetti here.

I’ve also challenged the meme of the OP that as a yet to turn 20 year old he had achieved nothing before he came to UAE. Few do at that age, even those you presumably believe in. Paul Seixas is an outlier.

You can challenge whatever you want. Pre-UAE Pogacar was above average at best. Just compare his results to Primozic who is 3 months younger.

Tadej Pogačar versus Jaka Primožič | Same race results

Comparison of results between Tadej PogaÄar and Jaka PrimožiÄ in races where they both started.

www.procyclingstats.com

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

I'm starting to wonder if some of the users posting the most ridiculous comments are being paid by Pog or UAE to employ reverse psychology