Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Peyroteo94]

I live 10 km away from Pogi, and in the bike shops and cafés you meet professionals from various teams almost every day. Some of them speak very badly about Pogi and accuse him of doping.

You just need to visit the right shops and get to know people, and you'll hear a lot.

We all believe you! Give me more of this!

 

[Ripper]

I know this might not be evident at first sight, but this guy seems to be a true believer in Pogacar, so that's indeed the level here, but from some of his fans, not his critics.

I also see some interesting math from true believers. The heat training impact on VO2 appears hyperbole.

 

[aphronesis]

We all believe you! Give me more of this!

I have little to say about Pog, but by high school, if not junior high, there was discussion, and some implied choice of doping in running and cycling circles. The topic didn’t come up strictly because kids were bored and showing off.

You might recall Armstrong etc.?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I live 10 km away from Pogi, and in the bike shops and cafés you meet professionals from various teams almost every day. Some of them speak very badly about Pogi and accuse him of doping.

You just need to visit the right shops and get to know people, and you'll hear a lot.

Do you have any insider info about how many watts does his hidden electric motor produce?

 

[AlpRaid]

I also see some interesting math from true believers. The heat training impact on VO2 appears hyperbole.

So much of the pog defense posters is literally the mirror image of Armstrong defenders of yore.

Remember the weight loss, the high efficiency spinning, the “cancer changed his body”, the “I recon every stage” bs. It goes on and on. And it was ALL a fraud.

As for “coaching” and new training making that much of a difference. lol. And much more lol.

Pog appeals to the same cult as Armstrong did. I expect the same fans think Flo Jo suddenly came out of nowhere to run her 1988 records clean because of switching coaches:

“Before the 1988 track and field season, her best time in the 100-meter sprint was 10.96 seconds (set in 1987). In 1988, she improved that by 0.47 seconds. Her best before 1988 at 200 meters was 21.96 seconds (also set in 1987). In 1988, she improved that by 0.62 seconds to 21.34 seconds, another time that has not been approached. Griffith Joyner attributed the change in her physique to new health programs. Al Joyner replaced Bob Kersee as her coach, and he changed her training program to include more lower-body-strength training exercises such as squats and lunges.”

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[AlpRaid]

Meanwhile Remco, by most accounts, rode a similar speed as top times from 2023 (including Pog’s).

However, this year Pog was somehow 1:30 faster on a 20 minute climb.

Freaking hysterical jump in pure watts/kg.

Simply not believable.

 

[Cookster15]

[content deleted]
A reminder that Remco also beat Pantani’s PdB record by over a minute last year.


This morning I just refuted comments about Pog’s record as a teenager, the lack of results by Pogacar’s competitors as a junior, his visible lack of suffering and even provided a refutation on how a change of coach can make a big difference with an athlete.
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None of what I posted says Pogacar isn’t doping. In fact, I am 100% sure he is based upon his numbers and history. But other than motors nobody has provided solid evidence how he has an unfair advantage against fellow pros - including Remco? Even Remco himself seems calm around Pogacar, not a hint suggesting any annoyance he has to compete against someone with an unfair advantage?

The Clinic seems a place where people come to groan when their favourite riders are beaten or, more recently, when one rider is so dominant there isn’t enough entertainment.

But to show I am interested in the truth, perhaps the focus shouldn’t be on Mauro Gianetti but on the much smarter people he brought to UAE? eg Maxtin and the doctors. Gianetti himself was no Dr Michele Ferrari. Also I’d like to know more how, if true, a UAE doctor was allowed to be on the UCI’s (or was it WADA’s?) anti doping panel?

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

I also see some interesting math from true believers. The heat training impact on VO2 appears hyperbole.

It's completely outlandish if it's in ml/(kg*min) but it might be in the ballpark in absolute value (ml*min). Can't be bothered to check that out today i confess.

 

[Peyroteo94]

The Clinic seems a place where people come to groan when their favourite riders are beaten or, more recently, when one rider is so dominant there isn’t enough entertainment.

This is so spot on!

 

[AlpRaid]

Stick to facts, logic and reason and you won’t need to make such remarks.

Um. My post is full of facts.

What did you not understand about the many comparisons with Flo Jo and Armstrong? What did you not understand by a 1:30 min jump in a 20 min climb? Seriously…tough to debate a cult, I should have known.

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[Cookster15]

Um. My post is full of facts.

[content deleted]

Not the post I replied to. Your subsequent posts had some facts. I provided a refutation of those earlier, did you miss that? I’m not going to post it again.

[content deleted]

 

[peterfin]

Meanwhile Remco, by most accounts, rode a similar speed as top times from 2023 (including Pog’s).

However, this year Pog was somehow 1:30 faster on a 20 minute climb.

Freaking hysterical jump in pure watts/kg.

Simply not believable.

It's that acceleration that is so freaking to me. On the Passo Ganda he had a 30 second gap in no time. According to Remco, he starts his attack at a somewhat lower cadance and then just cranks up (no gear change) and keeps that higher rhythm to establish the gap. And when he has the gap, there is no real recovery, he doesn't need to slow down after his mountain sprint. It's all so furious. It's not going in the typical shorter acceleration bursts of the typical climber and slowly building the gap.

 

[Ripper]

If it’s hilarity please post facts else it is just your subjective opinion as a Remco fan. A reminder that Remco also beat Pantani’s PdB record by over a minute last year.

This morning I just refuted comments about Pog’s record as a teenager, the lack of results by Pogacar’s competitors as a junior, his visible lack of suffering and even provided a refutation on how a change of coach can make a big difference with an athlete.

Citing hilarity isn’t helpful and suggests avoiding debate. Stick to facts, logic and reason and you won’t need to make such remarks.

None of what I posted says Pogacar isn’t doping. In fact, I am 100% sure he is based upon his numbers and history. But other than motors nobody has provided solid evidence how he has an unfair advantage against fellow pros - including Remco? Even Remco himself seems calm around Pogacar, not a hint suggesting any annoyance he has to compete against someone with an unfair advantage?

The Clinic seems a place where people come to groan when their favourite riders are beaten or, more recently, when one rider is so dominant there isn’t enough entertainment.

But to show I am interested in the truth, perhaps the focus shouldn’t be on Mauro Gianetti but on the much smarter people he brought to UAE? eg Maxtin and the doctors. Gianetti himself was no Dr Michele Ferrari. Also I’d like to know more how, if true, a UAE doctor was allowed to be on the UCI’s (or was it WADA’s?) anti doping panel?

@Cookster15 I hope when you are stating that you refuted "his visible lack of suffering", you are not referring to our exchange? If so, then I think you entirely missed my point.

 

[thetdog666]

Such weird hand/finger movements doing the attack, what a fraud.

When and who?

 

[daking123]

It’s honestly disappointing when a moderator claims to have “refuted” others as if it’s an unquestionable fact, when the issue is clearly more nuanced. That approach feels disingenuous especially when avoiding the real discussion.

 

[Cookster15]

@Cookster15 I hope when you are stating that you refuted "his visible lack of suffering", you are not referring to our exchange? If so, then I think you entirely missed my point.

Yes. This was your reply:

My point was that typically after a strong effort you will see signs of heavier breathing/physical compensation, especially if you continue to ride hard. This is important because it suggests Pog could have gone much harder if he needed to.

Of course, but that isn't what was being claimed. What was being claimed was he showed no suffering at all. I've refuted that.

Without knowing his heart rate the entire bold is hugely subjective - we can only go by facial expressions and his breathing.

I recall Pogacar appeared to be visibly suffering on several occasions since last season. One example was when he won at Isola 2000 closing down Jorgenson - he showed obvious suffering after the finish, breathing hard and hunched over his bars. I don't think he could have gone much harder that day? Then there was Hautacam this year - below is the video (from 6'53"). Not suffering?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F7c2VbGj-8

[content deleted]

[content deleted]If you have an issue with other posters , please use the report button and both mods will look.

It’s honestly disappointing when a moderator claims to have “refuted” others as if it’s an unquestionable fact, when the issue is clearly more nuanced. That approach feels disingenuous especially when avoiding the real discussion.

Another straw-man. I never claimed I was stating unquestionable facts - just providing counterpoints to other posters' points of view which were written as if they were irrefutable facts- including the OP to this thread 5 years ago. The onus is on Pogacar's detractors to back up their statements. Are moderators not allowed to share their opinions too ?

The entire reason I posted this morning was to provide some counterpoints. Again, to be clear, I am not saying Pogacar is clean - how could he be with his numbers and season long strength? But accusing people who dare disagree with the narrative with "hilarity" is actually an attempt to avoid proper debate.

 

[dr.eve]

Yes. This was your reply:



Of course, but that isn't what was being claimed. What was being claimed was he showed no suffering at all. I've refuted that.

Without knowing his heart rate the entire bold is hugely subjective - we can only go by facial expressions and his breathing.

I recall Pogacar appeared to be visibly suffering on several occasions since last season. One example was when he won at Isola 2000 closing down Jorgenson - he showed obvious suffering after the finish, breathing hard and hunched over his bars. I don't think he could have gone much harder that day? Then there was Hautacam this year - below is the video (from 6'53"). Not suffering?

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F7c2VbGj-8



A straw-man. I have never claimed Pogacar was clean - many times over in fact. You are the person refusing to engage in discussion by using throwaway 'hilarity' comments and clown emojis. Do you think that is civil discussion? Bashing Remco? If you have an issue with other posters , please use the report button and both mods will look.



Another straw-man. I never claimed I was stating unquestionable facts - just providing counterpoints to other posters' points of view which were written as if they were irrefutable facts- including the OP to this thread 5 years ago. The onus is on Pogacar's detractors to back up their statements. Are moderators not allowed to share their opinions too ?

The entire reason I posted this morning was to provide some counterpoints. Again, to be clear, I am not saying Pogacar is clean - how could he be with his numbers and season long strength? But accusing people who dare disagree with the narrative with "hilarity" is actually an attempt to avoid proper debate.

I get what you are attempting to do and I agree with that. You did mention 'two groups', one that comes here to discuss the possibility of doped riders (either because they don't like it or because their fav rider is beaten) OR fans of said 'possibly doped' rider.

You next go on to request people refrain from using sentiment and so on, that people should use facts and reason.

Again I agree.

However, I don't see you as a moderator going after posters (that are a fan of the discussed rider) that only post here to troll others. That's only distracting discussion and has no purpose than to 'annoy' others for their own satisfaction.

Please also act on those. Thx.

 

[TheKidsCallMeBoss]

I also see some interesting math from true believers. The heat training impact on VO2 appears hyperbole.

Total Hb mass directly impact maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max). An increase in total Hb mass leads to a higher VO2max because there is more oxygen carrying capacity in the blood. That's a fact.

Therefore, the hemoglobin mass (Hbmass), as an integrative parameter of BV and [Hb], is closely associated with VO2max, and a change in Hbmass of 1 g is related to a change in VO2max of ∼4 ml min

Hemoglobin Mass, Blood Volume and VO2max of Trained and Untrained Children and Adolescents Living at Different Altitudes - PMC

Introduction: To a considerable extent, the magnitude of blood volume (BV) and hemoglobin mass (Hbmass) contribute to the maximum O2-uptake (VO2max), especially in endurance-trained athletes. However, the development of Hbmass and BV and their ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Have you ever wondered why the entire peloton is hooked on heat training nowadays? Because it gives you a huge gains.

 

[Cookster15]

I get what you are attempting to do and I agree with that. You did mention 'two groups', one that comes here to discuss the possibility of doped riders (either because they don't like it or because their fav rider is beaten) OR fans of said 'possibly doped' rider.

You next go on to request people refrain from using sentiment and so on, that people should use facts and reason.

Again I agree.

However, I don't see you as a moderator going after posters (that are a fan of the discussed rider) that only post here to troll others. That's only distracting discussion and has no purpose than to 'annoy' others for their own satisfaction.

Please also act on those. Thx.

Thanks for the ask.

We don't necessarily read every post. I have spent more time following discussion today as today I have the time. But what is helpful when you see people who you think are trolling is to use the report button - bottom left hand side of every post.

Reporting posts alerts both mods. Both mods will look at the post to determine if we think the post breaks the forum rules , requires editing or is not civil discussion.

I hope this works.

 

[DONCA]

We all believe you! Give me more of this!

Go ahead and make fun of it. It doesn't change the fact that some people in and around Monaco speak badly of him and accuse him of doping. Your work here won't help either.

What do you want? His fav food spots in La Turbie and in Nice? Some new pictures of him?
His route for short intervals?

Just come by and you can meet the boy. He's so nice that he sometimes even rides with his fans. Even belgium ones

 

[Divergence]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1977140241011183747

View: https://x.com/jwoodmwq/status/1977140241011183747?s=19

This is something I would like to see and the 450w is even a bit less, that he apparently did on Ganda after a long season. Honestly I seriously believe he couldn't replicate the numbers he puts out on the Colnago roadbike.

Oh, no. Not the moto doping again .

 

[Stablo]

Oh, no. Not the moto doping again .

So how many times do you think normal peds are being used and not being caught? Motors are there and the technology has advanced massively since the first inside the tube battery was made in the late 90s. Even since the bust of Femke Van den Driessche almost ten years back, the size of batteries have gone down and power up. And this is only the technology that is publicly available. You have a smartphone, how did they look over 20 years back? So how can you be sure that something is not being used in a UAE owned Colnago, when there are also the monster watts, attacks, UCI sponsoring and never dropping form. I also think that the UAE team with Gianetti, Matxin and other fraudsters wouldn't have any problem morally using some sophisticated e-assistance.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

It’s honestly disappointing when a moderator claims to have “refuted” others as if it’s an unquestionable fact, when the issue is clearly more nuanced. That approach feels disingenuous especially when avoiding the real discussion.

Any moderator is one because they have been a long standing member of the forum, which will only be the case if they have a high level of interest in the sport and something to say about it. Unless acting as a moderator (and it is usually very clear if we are), we have exactly the same rights to express an opinion here as any one else.

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Total Hb mass directly impact maximal oxygen consumption (VO2max). An increase in total Hb mass leads to a higher VO2max because there is more oxygen carrying capacity in the blood. That's a fact.

Hemoglobin Mass, Blood Volume and VO2max of Trained and Untrained Children and Adolescents Living at Different Altitudes - PMC

Introduction: To a considerable extent, the magnitude of blood volume (BV) and hemoglobin mass (Hbmass) contribute to the maximum O2-uptake (VO2max), especially in endurance-trained athletes. However, the development of Hbmass and BV and their ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Have you ever wondered why the entire peloton is hooked on heat training nowadays? Because it gives you a huge gains.

"Huge gains", let's do some back-of-the-envelope math here.
The study you've linked claims an increase of 4 ml*min per gram of Hb mass (in absolute Vo2 max).
Upthread you've claimed that heat training can increase total Hb mass by as much as 42 grams, let's take this at face value for the sake of argument.
That net's you an increase of 168 ml*min in absolute Vo2, assuming maximum effects from heat training.
Let's assume pogacar is roughly 65 Kg, this would net him an increase of ~2.6 ml/(kg*min) in term of relative Vo2 (you know the way it's usually used).
Now let's assume he has a Vo2 around 90 ml/(kg*min), that's a ~3% increase, that would not translate fully to threshold power.
Probably something worth pursuing, but not that impressive, and that's assuming maximum efficiency and no deleterious effects (like fatigue) from heat training. That's a far cry from explaining the ~10% difference at threshold since 2024.
And the study you've linked is about children and adolescent living at altitude, not adults pro cyclists doing heat training btw.

 

[DONCA]

Do you have any insider info about how many watts does his hidden electric motor produce?

No.
Even if I knew, I wouldn't be stupid enough to post it here, sorry.

But hey if you want to know more about hidden motors you can contact the monegasque company hps.
Very friendly people.

The World’s lightest e-bike system :: HPS Sarl

HPS design and develop world-class technology using Formula 1 engineering fused with a passion for cycling.

hps-bike.com

Or even better just come to Monaco like this you can also meet Pogi in his fav bakery