Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[aphronesis]

Of course there’s the argument that certain Americans would make overcoming cancer into an identity and publicity agenda.

Pog might have other priorities.

 

[Revelation]

Yes, a guy being the best rider in the world by using training methods a decade out of date makes all of the sense in the world

Shame there's no sense left in this world.

I do think that even if the training methods were far from optimal, Pogacar was also to blame by not dedicating himself fully into maximising his performance until 2024. There was nothing stopping him from having the proper physique before that, so not an insignificant gain was had from that alone before whatever Sola brought.

 

[Abedfo]

I think what we have to remember through all this is that UAEs performances look so over the top because we are also assuming that the majority of other teams also have programmes.

I also find it laughable to suggest a world tour pro isn't "dedicating themselves fully" they are being paid handsomely to do so.

 

[AlpRaid]

lol at some of these delusional armstrong re-appraisals.

he was completely incapable of following GC riders on longer climbs before hooking up with Ferrari. lost 20+ minutes every mountain stage.

he had a 70+ or so VO2 which is average (if not low) for a pro and his natural hematocrit level was also on the low side -- thus he was a super-responder to oxygen vector doping.

the idea that he was a really good rider - dope or no dope - is tantamount ridiculousness.

Bassons' physiognomy was apparently better, but since he refused to dope he was soon out of the pro ranks.

I find any talent/racing comparisons with that generation is simply ludicrous. the only thing you can discuss about those riders is how well they responded to the doping of the time. and there were likely dozens of riders who opted out -- like Delion -- who were head and shoulders better talents than the biggest freakin' fraud in sports history.

 

[aphronesis]

None of that changes the fact of the period. Would I like to have seen Ullrich or Basso do more? Certainly. But it didn’t happen. Jan extended Oktoberfest?

Is the argument that only mediocre riders were present and doping while others opted out?

 

[AlpRaid]

Is the argument that only mediocre riders were present and doping while others opted out?

not necessarily.

however, quantifying individual talent based on totally doped performances is absolutely pointless.

and armstrong stands out particularly because he showed no ability whatsoever to be able to compete in GC (I mean, nowhere close) until getting connected with Ferrari. So to say armstrong would be or was still an excellent pro rider is completely non-sensical. and the data actually suggests the opposite.

it's like saying DiLucaa or Ricco would have still won GTs.

It's just completely illogical.

 

[Extinction]

This has been spiralling out into the usual nonsense. Foremost the tendency to confuse Armstrong’s personality, the spectacular machinery around him and the extent to which he gamed the cycling world with those means, among other things, dope and do what he did. Any hand wringing and moralizing is all well and valid, but it ultimately inhibits and involutes any discussion of the sport’s history when people are unable (by now) to separate and discuss those things on their own. Which leads to a situation of many discussants wanting to have things both ways. Part of what may contribute to the incoherence of the clinic.

To the bolded, I don't think the many who have taken umbrage with Armstrong was for doping alone, given the sport's history, but the ruthless manner in which he ruined those who opposed him while he still could. "Both ways" also entails understanding doping is a constant, but not holding Armstrong accountable for being a bully and a tyrant. At all events, Pog and Gianetti have succeded in the difficult ruse; namely, a tyrant who comes across as pares inter pares, an Augustan Genius that saves a moribond republic. Proscription lists are all that await us.

 

[aphronesis]

not necessarily.

however, quantifying individual talent based on totally doped performances is absolutely pointless.

and armstrong stands out particularly because he showed no ability whatsoever to be able to compete in GC (I mean, nowhere close) until getting connected with Ferrari. So to say armstrong would be or was still an excellent pro rider is completely non-sensical. and the data actually suggests the opposite.

it's like saying DiLucaa or Ricco would have still won GTs.

It's just completely illogical.

But that would lead to the familiar path of omerta, patron, bullying, etc. And maybe so, but reducing the period down to any zero point doesn’t seem sufficient.

 

[aphronesis]

To the bolded, I don't think the many who have taken umbrage with Armstrong was for doping alone, given the sport's history, but the ruthless manner in which he ruined those who opposed him while he still could. "Both ways" also entails understanding doping is a constant, but not holding Armstrong accountable for being a bully and a tyrant. At all events, Pog and Gianetti have succeded in the difficult ruse; namely, a tyrant who comes across as pares inter pares, an Augustan Genius that saves a moribond republic. Proscription lists are all that await us.

I agree with you. My point was that many used the behavior and doping as actual wedges against each other to make an argument that, as a few of us have claimed, wasn’t honestly about cycling.

Edit: conversations on saving the Republic are probably right up there.

 

[dr.eve]

probably,but gotta push agenda,cause rooted for ullrich back than,lmaoo.

Hehe same here, i was one of the few in my environment who was supporting Ullrich.

 

[Unchained]

Yes, a guy being the best rider in the world by using training methods a decade out of date makes all of the sense in the world

Shame there's no sense left in this world.

Yes, a guy being the best rider in the world by using training methods a decade out of date makes all of the sense in the world

Shame there's no sense left in this world.

I don't know were it is but if you really want to check out just how old school he isn't.. There are a couple of videos about position and crank length, bottom bracket and pedal spindle offsets and through research they discovered that open hip position and abbreviated stroke made major circulation in lower limbs to be improved. Something that basically says that if during your pedal stroke your circulation is restricted were your leg is connected to your pelvic bone.. So if your leg doesn't bend as much you have way better blood flow.. Lots of Pogacar interviews about training are behind pay walls ..I am not signing up for some patreon BS to hear about cycling training and nutrition that I will never do.

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=s0kMSn_7rEg&pp=ygUadGFkZWogcG9nYcSNYXIgcGV0ZXIgYXR0aWE%3D

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Q3n--TOH0&pp=ygUOdGFkZWogcG9nYcSNYXI%3D

And Johan on Move podcast talks about how Tadej doesn't use as many calories as others, he uses Strava data

 

[AlpRaid]

But that would lead to the familiar path of omerta, patron, bullying, etc. And maybe so, but reducing the period down to any zero point doesn’t seem sufficient.

I literally do not understand this post at all. No comprehension whatsoever as to the point you are trying make. None.

Sorry.

 

[aphronesis]

I literally do not understand this post at all. No comprehension whatsoever as to the point you are trying make. None.

Sorry.

You aren’t offering any account of the period other than a negative one based on the most prominent rider. How to make that point clearer isn’t clear to me. Hundreds of riders. Surely there’s something else to say?

 

[SorelyBoy]

It’s telling that there’s now a media cottage industry dedicated to explaining away Pogacar’s ludicrous performances. Some of the explanations are also as ludicrous to be fair. He goes to the gym. He does a few sit ups. He changed the height of his saddle to super duper mode. He doesn’t use calories. And now someone claims he’s really the next generation of human, literally a mutant X-Man who has unique body chemistry. Well it’s more than a little strange that this superhuman ability didn’t reveal itself until he joined UAE.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

And now someone claims he’s really the next generation of human, literally a mutant X-Man who has unique body chemistry. Well it’s more than a little strange that this superhuman ability didn’t reveal itself until he joined UAE.

Not that strange. Professor X (Mauro) simply helped Pogi make the most of his abilities.

 

[Red Rick]

It’s telling that there’s now a media cottage industry dedicated to explaining away Pogacar’s ludicrous performances. Some of the explanations are also as ludicrous to be fair. He goes to the gym. He does a few sit ups. He changed the height of his saddle to super duper mode. He doesn’t use calories. And now someone claims he’s really the next generation of human, literally a mutant X-Man who has unique body chemistry. Well it’s more than a little strange that this superhuman ability didn’t reveal itself until he joined UAE.

Some of it is like they're even trying to downplay that he's a top professional and it's just all capital G God given talent.

 

[SorelyBoy]

Some of it is like they're even trying to downplay that he's a top professional and it's just all capital G God given talent.

It’s an attempt to rationalise the utterly *huge* disparity between him and a bunch of other world class professionals who (shock) do all the same cutting edge training techniques and other marginal gains stuff that UAE do. And that argument seems to be ‘he’s a lucky sod.’

 

[Red Rick]

It’s an attempt to rationalise the utterly *huge* disparity between him and a bunch of other world class professionals who (shock) do all the same cutting edge training techniques and other marginal gains stuff that UAE do. And that argument seems to be ‘he’s a lucky sod.’

Someone who shall not be named told me "the best rider just wins everything now cause they're all clean"

 

[Rob5091]

Someone who shall not be named told me "the best rider just wins everything now cause they're all clean"

You've been reading G's book?!

 

[Red Rick]

You've been reading G's book?!

If someone put a gun to my head and told me to read it I'd be inclined to just tell them to shoot me.

But it surprises me not that he'd say this. The man is the perfect comination of full of *** and horrendously dull. The fact that Geraint Thomas has fans makes me question humanity more than I already do.

 

[Tim Cahill]

We still need a volunteer to trawl through Wiggins’ book to report back.

Where is fmk rol when you need him, guy would read this stuff specifically knowing it would agitate him.

 

[AlpRaid]

You aren’t offering any account of the period other than a negative one based on the most prominent rider. How to make that point clearer isn’t clear to me. Hundreds of riders. Surely there’s something else to say?

I guess we differ.

I really do not pay attention to any results or consider any of the prominent riders from 1991-2010 as in anyway legitimate.

It was an era when riders could be dropped on mere hills by semi-pros in the Tour of Gila, only to destroy the entire pro peloton five weeks later in France under the guidance of a doping doctor. Absolutely zero way of judging natural hierarchy from that.

I fear that the last two years seem a mirror to the start of the EPO era when only a handful of riders or a team had the advantage of a “super-drug” provided by a doctor.

 

[kingjr]

I guess we differ.

I really do not pay attention to any results or consider any of the prominent riders from 1991-2010 as in anyway legitimate.

It was an era when riders could be dropped on mere hills by semi-pros in the Tour of Gila, only to destroy the entire pro peloton five weeks later in France under the guidance of a doping doctor. Absolutely zero way of judging natural hierarchy from that.

I fear that the last two years seem a mirror to the start of the EPO era when only a handful of riders or a team had the advantage of a “super-drug” provided by a doctor.

Does Bradley McGee count as prominent?

 

[Extinction]

I agree with you. My point was that many used the behavior and doping as actual wedges against each other to make an argument that, as a few of us have claimed, wasn’t honestly about cycling.

Edit: conversations on saving the Republic are probably right up there.

My point was about controlling the narrative. Evidently Pogi, under Gianetti, has his Vergil, Maceneas and Dionysus of Halicarnasus to present him as a renewer of the sport, the harbinger of a Golden Age. Only UAE sponsorship can make this happen, perhaps even more than US Postal could have mustered, because we aren't even dealing with market opportunities, but the pure preponderance of money as symbol for reality.

As far as doping as wedges are concerned, it's the typical manipulative divide et impera at work. You pit the fans against themselves and rule, just like over the working class.

 

[kingjr]

If this is a golden age – I don't use the term, but I've bee enjoying cycling more in the past 6 years than ever, and that's saying something – then the title of harbinger needs to be split at least four ways. Wout, Mathieu, and Remco have as much of a claim to it as Tadej, if not more. Mathieu perhaps the most, due to his sheer wildness.