Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Krzysztof_O]

Let's face it, weak competition. Sure Roglic was good, but in the end caved into the pressure. Gianetti-Maxtin were already, on much less funding, poised to net a Tour with Riccò, but then the floor dropped out from under their feet. But with UAE behind the project, success was ensured.

Look at the numbers of Tour 2020 or even Vuelta 2019. Weak competition? Come on. The performance stuff was very good then in other teams too and so were the riders. My point is that Pog likely didn't have some magical advantage over other teams back then (therefore his big talent can't be denied). 2024-2025 could be a different story who knows but that's not the point of this particular exchange (as you basically questioned his natural aerobic efficiency, which is nuts).

 

[Cookster15]

It means that Seixas and others are far more talented than Pogacar.

That's not what the science says. Different riders mature at different ages. There is a bell curve and some mature early but then decline early. Pogacar is still one of the youngest, winning the 2018 Tour de l'Avenir aged 20.

Paul Seixas is an obvious outlier. It remains to be seen if Seixas career trajectory continues and for how long?

 

[Cookster15]

Gianetti-Maxtin were already, on much less funding, poised to net a Tour with Riccò, but then the floor dropped out from under their feet.

That's your opinion. Most watching the 2008 TdF didn't take Riccò seriously as a GC threat. Riccò was backing up from the Giro too. Riccò was no Pogacar (or Pantani).

If Gianetti thought Riccò was his best chance to net a Tour he would have had Riccò instead of Piepoli and Cobo winning on the Hautacam stage (Riccò finished 2 minutes down in the Evans and Sastre group).

 

[Extinction]

Look at the numbers of Tour 2020 or even Vuelta 2019. Weak competition? Come on. The performance stuff was very good then in other teams too and so were the riders. My point is that Pog likely didn't have some magical advantage over other teams back then (therefore his big talent can't be denied). 2024-2025 could be a different story who knows but that's not the point of this particular exchange (as you basically questioned his natural aerobic efficiency, which is nuts).

I wasn't dismissing his big talent, as already mentioned, however, Pog's meteoric rise under Gianetti will ever remain suspect, as would any "new Merckx" riding for the Swiss vampire.

 

[Extinction]

That's your opinion. Most watching the 2008 TdF didn't take Riccò seriously as a GC threat. Riccò was backing up from the Giro too. Riccò was no Pogacar (or Pantani).

If Gianetti thought Riccò was his best chance to net a Tour he would have had Riccò instead of Piepoli and Cobo winning on the Hautacam stage (Riccò finished 2 minutes down in the Evans and Sastre group).

This was already rehearsed up-thread. So you think Piepoli or Cobo was the horse Gianetti was betting on? Or just trying to keep Evans and Sastre with too many guys to cover?

 

[Cookster15]

This was already rehearsed up-thread. So you think Piepoli or Cobo was the horse Gianetti was betting on? Or just trying to keep Evans and Sastre with too many guys to cover?

Yes and I shared my opinion and I disagree as I think you are redacting history. You are entitled to your opinion.

In the 2008 Tour Sastre's team were not worried about Riccò and neither was Cadel Evans. Evans was watching Saxo Bank and rightly so. He wasn't worried about anyone in Saunier Duval. None of them were good TTers either.

 

[Extinction]

Yes and I shared my opinion and I disagree as I think you are redacting history. You are entitled to your opinion.

In the 2008 Tour Sastre's team were not worried about Riccò and neither was Cadel Evans. Evans was watching Saxo Bank and rightly so. He wasn't worried about anyone in Saunier Duval. None of them were good TTers either.

Perhaps, but I had the sense at the time that Riccò was the best climber in the world in that moment. Whether he would have pulled a Pantani in the Alpes remains unknowable. However, it was strange under Gianetti how, without ever showing truly phenomenal talent in the junior and under-23 ranks, suddenly a new Pantani seemed to be on the rise. Riccò just needed another year with Gianetti-Maxtin to ripen from lead to gold. On the other hand, you still had Bruyneel and Contador with Kazaki financial backing, while Riis and Saxo were still in the game, so it's not at all clear. But this is why I've said give Gianetti UAE petrol dollars and a guy like Pogi, who obviously is a better specimen to work on than was Riccò, and you eventually get the performances we've seen from Tadej over the past two seasons. Although this doesn't boil down to just more talent if you ask me. There is an alchemy at work any time Gianetti is involved. To think otherwise is simply daft.

 

[BubbaChuck]

man 90s story is so funny,lmaoo.now its ricco and armstrong great evils,bahhhaa.never pushed numbers even close to real juicers.

 

[BubbaChuck]

picture pantani or big mig pushing that numbers in 95,lmaoo.even pogacar is barelly pushing these numbers today and he is 3 times the cyclist on all levels.

 

[BubbaChuck]

i gotta say uci really did his job back in the day,we are talking about ricco.literally whole generation on insane juice,yet we are talking about ricco.if you tole me back than,asylium.

 

[peterfin]

Lazkano's case may be an example why we see top riders signing up for 5 years or more at top teams. It's in both interests to keep the blood values steady. The clinic is their real bond, not the team or their bank account. Their bank account would benefit from not being bounded by the clinic.

 

[Extinction]

picture pantani or big mig pushing that numbers in 95,lmaoo.even pogacar is barelly pushing these numbers today and he is 3 times the cyclist on all levels.

Right and Pogi almost 4 minutes ahead of Pantani's 1998 Plateau de Beille must be chalked up to wild blueberry juice post stage and everything is copacedic. Bravo.

 

[BubbaChuck]

landa said it was pickle juice and pantani is chump.

 

[Extinction]

, so we will get the usual small fish snared in the anti-doping nets to show the public the system is working.

Oier Lazkano, I rest my case.​

 

[BubbaChuck]

my man dosenot understand this makes pog look better.beacuse,when remco has 4 camps or jonas is preparing 1 year for tour,thye better hope truth doesnot come out.literal chumps.

 

[Cookster15]

There is an alchemy at work any time Gianetti is involved. To think otherwise is simply daft.

We are implying Mauro Gianetti is some kind of mastermind? But Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari.

e.g. Armstrong worked with Dr Ferrari - I emphasize Ferrari is a qualified doctor of medicine. At best Gianetti seems a shrewd politician to avoid the testers or ensure the testers look the other way?

And if I am UAE why would I have confidence in a guy because he rode in the EPO era and because of what happened at the 2008 Tour de France? Hardly a glowing reference. In the 2020 Tour UAE was not the strongest team either - that was Jumbo Visma.

Who does Gianetti employ who actually understands the science involved of boosting his riders but avoiding triggering an adverse finding under the passport? I don’t think anyone who isn’t a trained physician can do this? It runs the risk of a Lazkano situation.

Then its also been suggested here a UAE team doctor is on the UCI doping panel? Who is that? Why aren’t other teams screaming? Not a peep from a journalist? Why are Red Bull tolerating knowing what they invest in cycling?

Then I also don’t get why a business with such resources as UAE would go to such lengths to win the Tour de France or dominate a 2nd tier professional sport like cycling? Emirates play in European football (soccer) which dwarfs cycling in costs, global reach and exposure? What’s the business case for an elaborate deception to win in cycling?

Not much adds up. Many questions, no answers. Maybe Gianetti just got lucky with Pogacar?

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

We are implying Mauro Gianetti is some kind of mastermind? But Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari.

e.g. Armstrong worked with Dr Ferrari - I emphasize Ferrari is a qualified doctor of medicine. At best Gianetti seems a shrewd politician to avoid the testers or ensure the testers look the other way?

And if I am UAE why would I have confidence in a guy because he rode in the EPO era and because of what happened at the 2008 Tour de France? Hardly a glowing reference. In the 2020 Tour UAE was not the strongest team either - that was Jumbo Visma.

Who does Gianetti employ who actually understands the science involved of boosting his riders but avoiding triggering an adverse finding under the passport? I don’t think anyone who isn’t a trained physician can do this? It runs the risk of a Lazkano situation.

Then its also been suggested here a UAE team doctor is on the UCI doping panel? Who is that? Why aren’t other teams screaming? Not a peep from a journalist? Why are Red Bull tolerating knowing what they invest in cycling?

Then I also don’t get why a business with such resources as UAE would go to such lengths to win the Tour de France or dominate a 2nd tier professional sport like cycling? Emirates play in European football (soccer) which dwarfs cycling in costs, global reach and exposure? What’s the business case for an elaborate deception to win in cycling?

Not much adds up. Many questions, no answers. Maybe Gianetti just got lucky with Pogacar?

Gianetti himself isn't a scientist but he has connections, like you pointed out, both with medical professional/dealers (See Guido Nigrelli) and he seems to have some clout in the political/sporting side of things (or maybe calling it the "milieu" would be more accurate).

He always had some rider achiveing... surprising results, even when he was managing low budget teams, now that he's able to "run free" so to speak, we get the insanity that we are witnessing.

The doctor on the UCI medical board is not a suggestion, you can check yourself on the UCI website and see doctor Lima Quintas as a member of the medical commission and then check the UAE website to confirm he is indeed working for UAE too.

As for why UAE would invest in cycling, the Tour is the third most watched sporting event in the world, and you can win it by bankrolling a team for cheaper than the transfer fee of a top level footbal player, and win a lot more races as a bonus, seems like money well spent to me.

 

[Extinction]

We are implying Mauro Gianetti is some kind of mastermind? But Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari.

e.g. Armstrong worked with Dr Ferrari - I emphasize Ferrari is a qualified doctor of medicine. At best Gianetti seems a shrewd politician to avoid the testers or ensure the testers look the other way?

And if I am UAE why would I have confidence in a guy because he rode in the EPO era and because of what happened at the 2008 Tour de France? Hardly a glowing reference. In the 2020 Tour UAE was not the strongest team either - that was Jumbo Visma.

Who does Gianetti employ who actually understands the science involved of boosting his riders but avoiding triggering an adverse finding under the passport? I don’t think anyone who isn’t a trained physician can do this? It runs the risk of a Lazkano situation.

Then its also been suggested here a UAE team doctor is on the UCI doping panel? Who is that? Why aren’t other teams screaming? Not a peep from a journalist? Why are Red Bull tolerating knowing what they invest in cycling?

Then I also don’t get why a business with such resources as UAE would go to such lengths to win the Tour de France or dominate a 2nd tier professional sport like cycling? Emirates play in European football (soccer) which dwarfs cycling in costs, global reach and exposure? What’s the business case for an elaborate deception to win in cycling?

Not much adds up. Many questions, no answers. Maybe Gianetti just got lucky with Pogacar?

I already answered this.

 

[Cookster15]

Gianetti himself isn't a scientist but he has connections, like you pointed out, both with medical professional/dealers (See Guido Nigrelli) and he seems to have some clout in the political/sporting side of things (or maybe calling it the "milieu" would be more accurate).

He always had some rider achiveing... surprising results, even when he was managing low budget teams, now that he's able to "run free" so to speak, we get the insanity that we are witnessing.

The doctor on the UCI medical board is not a suggestion, you can check yourself on the UCI website and see doctor Lima Quintas as a member of the medical commission and then check the UAE website to confirm he is indeed working for UAE too.

As for why UAE would invest in cycling, the Tour is the third most watched sporting event in the world, and you can win it by bankrolling a team for cheaper than the transfer fee of a top level footbal player, and win a lot more races as a bonus, seems like money well spent to me.

Thanks. I know the doctor on UCI was a fact - just wanted names. So on Filipe Lima Quintas, why are no questions being asked? Seems like a massive conflict of interest. If you were Red Bull would you be happy about that? The top three teams all have similar sized budgets, UAE's is about 20% bigger.

 

[Cookster15]

I already answered this.

I obviously missed that - can you link your comment? Filipe Lima Quintas? Why no questions asked about such an obvious conflict of interest?

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Thanks. I know the doctor on UCI was a fact - just wanted names. So on Filipe Lima Quintas, why are no questions being asked? Seems like a massive conflict of interest. If you were Red Bull would you be happy about that? The top three teams all have similar sized budgets, UAE's is about 20% bigger.

I genuinely don't know why no question are asked, i've heard some noise from anonymous sources in the French press more or less saying "you don't want to get on the bad side of Gianetti", this might be the beginning of an answer.

 

[Cookster15]

I genuinely don't know why no question are asked, i've heard some noise from anonymous sources in the French press more or less saying "you don't want to get on the bad side of Gianetti", this might be the beginning of an answer.

Thanks. But this leaves more questions. Why is Gianetti such a feared character? Why would he have clout in the political/sporting side of things? He is no Dr Ferrari like I pointed out. Also as I have pointed out there is nothing stopping rival teams from lobbying the UCI behind closed doors. It would be in their best interest.

Gianetti has been involved in the sport since the 1990s as a rider and 2002 as a manager. Yet before 2021 his team was nothing special. It all seems thanks to Pogacar.

But maybe someone can add a paragraph on Gianetti's doping links in his Wiki page?

Mauro Gianetti - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ColonelKidneyBeans]

Thanks. But this leaves more questions. Why is Gianetti such a feared character? Why would he have clout in the political/sporting side of things? He is no Dr Ferrari like I pointed out. Also as I have pointed out there is nothing stopping rival teams from lobbying the UCI behind closed doors. It would be in their best interest.

Gianetti has been involved in the sport since the 1990s as a rider and 2002 as a manager. Yet before 2021 his team was nothing special. It all seems thanks to Pogacar.

But maybe someone can add a paragraph on Gianetti's doping links in his Wiki page?

Mauro Gianetti - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Funny that you would mention wikipedia and Gianetti

Gianetti is a shady character with lot of friends (I've heard former pro saying that he's a rather likable guy), connections (The UCI and UAE seems to be in cahoots, see Mywoosh/cycling esports) , and money, that makes him one of the most powerful people in cycling right now, i don't think it goes much further than that.

As for the extent he is able to "outlobby" others or create problems for them if they move in a way that displease him, we can only speculate but i'd wager many are reluctant to try his patience.

And i strongly disagree with his former teams being "nothing special", Saunier and Geoxx were quite "special" indeed.

 

[YellowSocks]

Then I also don’t get why a business with such resources as UAE would go to such lengths to win the Tour de France or dominate a 2nd tier professional sport like cycling?

Today I read an article in a French daily newspaper about the golden statue of Pogacar that they unveiled in Abu Dhabi. [content deleted]. Just a golden statue. Mission accomplished.

Why is Gianetti such a feared character?

Ask Dr. Gérald Gremion, one of the doctors at the Lausanne hospital where Gianetti was saved after his PFC accident. You certainly know that he is no longer allowed to even mention Gianetti's name.


You know you have the right to do your own research. Constantly contradicting people here without bringing anything new to the table doesn't help matters.

 

[Cookster15]

You know you have the right to do your own research. Constantly contradicting people here without bringing anything new to the table doesn't help matters.

We help matters by asking questions on what has been brought to the table. I'll look into it.