Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Stablo]

Look at the numbers of Tour 2020 or even Vuelta 2019. Weak competition? Come on. The performance stuff was very good then in other teams too and so were the riders. My point is that Pog likely didn't have some magical advantage over other teams back then (therefore his big talent can't be denied). 2024-2025 could be a different story who knows but that's not the point of this particular exchange (as you basically questioned his natural aerobic efficiency, which is nuts).

You clearly didn't watch the magical coal miner TT effort, that by itself tells he had some serious Gianetti&Matxin special juice already. It was the first "supercharged Ricco"-moment of pog the dog.

Edit. I know he had good results also prior to that, but until then he was still somewhat following a normal path for an upcoming young talent. Then out of the blue he beats TT-specialists on the flat looking so awfull and off course the insane performance on the climb.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

You clearly didn't watch the magical coal miner TT effort, that by itself tells he had some serious Gianetti&Matxin special juice already. It was the first "supercharged Ricco"-moment of pog the dog.

Edit. I know he had good results also prior to that, but until then he was still somewhat following a normal path for an upcoming young talent. Then out of the blue he beats TT-specialists on the flat looking so awfull and off course the insane performance on the climb.

He won that Tour without a team. It doesn't convince me that UAE had advantage over JV, who had a monster team in that Tour. Look at JV's performances in the following years (Vingo & Van Aert & Roglic & Kuss). Note that I never implied Pogacar was clean but that UAE didn't have performance advantage back then. 2024-2025 is probably a different story.

 

[HashRouge]

You clearly didn't watch the magical coal miner TT effort, that by itself tells he had some serious Gianetti&Matxin special juice already. It was the first "supercharged Ricco"-moment of pog the dog.

Edit. I know he had good results also prior to that, but until then he was still somewhat following a normal path for an upcoming young talent. Then out of the blue he beats TT-specialists on the flat looking so awfull and off course the insane performance on the climb.

I feel like this is revisionist history. His TT position looked fine. Sure, not as refined as Rog or Dumoulin, but it was fine. He'd won the Slovenian NC TT ahead of Roglic earlier that year, he wasn't some scrub who'd never sat on a TT bike. He beat TT-specialists on the flat on stage 20 of a Grand Tour. We know final week TTs favour the GT specialists who are decent TTers. Was his performance outstanding? Yes. Is it as egregious as you say? No.

 

[Stablo]

We are implying Mauro Gianetti is some kind of mastermind? But Gianetti is no Dr Michele Ferrari.

e.g. Armstrong worked with Dr Ferrari - I emphasize Ferrari is a qualified doctor of medicine. At best Gianetti seems a shrewd politician to avoid the testers or ensure the testers look the other way?

And if I am UAE why would I have confidence in a guy because he rode in the EPO era and because of what happened at the 2008 Tour de France? Hardly a glowing reference. In the 2020 Tour UAE was not the strongest team either - that was Jumbo Visma.

Who does Gianetti employ who actually understands the science involved of boosting his riders but avoiding triggering an adverse finding under the passport? I don’t think anyone who isn’t a trained physician can do this? It runs the risk of a Lazkano situation.

Then its also been suggested here a UAE team doctor is on the UCI doping panel? Who is that? Why aren’t other teams screaming? Not a peep from a journalist? Why are Red Bull tolerating knowing what they invest in cycling?

Then I also don’t get why a business with such resources as UAE would go to such lengths to win the Tour de France or dominate a 2nd tier professional sport like cycling? Emirates play in European football (soccer) which dwarfs cycling in costs, global reach and exposure? What’s the business case for an elaborate deception to win in cycling?

Not much adds up. Many questions, no answers. Maybe Gianetti just got lucky with Pogacar?

Off course they want as much sportwashing and visibility as possible and they get it relatively cheap in cycling. Also Gianetti is not Dr. Ferrari, but he sure has experts in the team. The doctor in UAE with a double role in the UCI panel has been mentioned here several time and as im working don't have time to look it up again.

Imho the trust here some have in a team run by Gianetti&Co and sponsored by UAE of all the countries is astonishing.

Edit. Im behind and noticed someone already mentioned the doctor in question

 

[Stablo]

He won that Tour without a team. It doesn't convince me that UAE had advantage over JV, who had a monster team in that Tour. Look at JV's performances in the following years (Vingo & Van Aert & Roglic & Kuss). Note that I never implied Pogacar was clean but that UAE didn't have performance advantage back then. 2024-2025 is probably a different story.

Not UAE as a team, but that TT and the next year made it pretty clear pog already had something JV didn't. That lead eventually to the supercharged version of Vinge and the absurdness pog has shown the past two seasons.

 

[Stablo]

I feel like this is revisionist history. His TT position looked fine Sure, not as refined as Rog or Dumoulin, but it was fine. He'd won the Slovenian NC TT ahead of Roglic earlier that year, he wasn't some scrub who'd never sat on a TT bike. He beat TT-specialists on the flat on stage 20 of a Grand Tour. We know final week TTs favour the GT specialists who are decent TTers. Was his performance outstanding? Yes. Is it as egregious as you say? No.

Feel free to disagree, but it was the craziest bs we had seen since some of Froomes features. And yeah of course leaving froomies performances pale in power comparison.

 

[Rob5091]

I wrote 10 million Euro more. I just checked again and confirmed the below:

• UAE Between €55 and €60 million for 2024 and 2025
• Visma Lease a bike €50 to €55 million
• Red Bull Between €45 and €50 million
• Decathlon AG2R €40 million in 2026 (€28 million in 2025)

I think potentially UAE or even Red Bull (based upon Red Bull's spend across all global sports) could spend more on cycling if they wanted too.

Thanks for the post! I'll remember to put on my bifocals next time ... (60 million Euros pays a lot of chain lube ...)

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Not UAE as a team, but that TT and the next year made it pretty clear pog already had something JV didn't. That lead eventually to the supercharged version of Vinge and the absurdness pog has shown the past two seasons.

Visma had performance advantage till 2023 and it's easy to see. As for that TT probably two factors contributed to it: Pogacar's talent + being a good responder to common stuff (not some advanced magic that somehow didn't work for any other rider of the team, including an elite climber like Aru).

 

[Stablo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1977020352032305540

View: https://x.com/Lv_Cycling/status/1977020352032305540?s=19


Here is something again for entertainment in the boring winter months. It's amazing how pogs ET-level superhuman hill climbing powers dissapear with the TT-bike 🤷‍♂️🤡

 

[topcat]

Visma had performance advantage till 2023 and it's easy to see. As for that TT probably two factors contributed to it: Pogacar's talent + being a good responder to common stuff (not some advanced magic that somehow didn't work for any other rider of the team, including an elite climber like Aru).

Hard dope always beats talent especially when talent doesn't dope hard.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Hard dope always beats talent especially when talent doesn't dope hard.

Do you realize that a better responder to blood doping must be superior regarding other part(s) of aerobic system chain?

BTW I dont necessarily disagree with your comment.

 

[Rob5091]

Hard dope always beats talent especially when talent doesn't dope hard.

Dope hard! That sounds like a good slogan for a t-shirt.

 

[kingjr]

And yet ... US Postal and Armstrong probably were institutionally privileged, despite any interest of their competitors to the contrary.

Were they, compared to Telekom?

 

[Extinction]

Were they, compared to Telekom?

It's known that the UCI was complicit in a retro-TUE for testosterone, so, yes.

 

[Sciatic]

Do you realize that a better responder to blood doping must be superior regarding other part(s) of aerobic system chain?

Not sure exactly what you mean. Everyone who reaches the elite level of cycling is highly likely to have (prior to doping) a superior aerobic system. Thus they all will be able to utilize the increase in HGB from blood bags or EPO. I guess the exception would be if a ride had a naturally high native EPO level (like well above 200 but more likely above 500) then the EPO injections will not provide as much (or any) benefit. But that would be rare.
Certainly there will be differences in each rider's physiological ability to utilize oxygen delivery. But that would be a difference that exists whether doping or not.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Not sure exactly what you mean. Everyone who reaches the elite level of cycling is highly likely to have (prior to doping) a superior aerobic system. Thus they all will be able to utilize the increase in HGB from blood bags or EPO. I guess the exception would be if a ride had a naturally high native EPO level (like well above 200 but more likely above 500) then the EPO injections will not provide as much (or any) benefit. But that would be rare.
Certainly there will be differences in each rider's physiological ability to utilize oxygen delivery. But that would be a difference that exists whether doping or not.

I mean that if two cyclists use blood doping to achieve similar blood values then in case of a super responder either oxygen utilization (metabolism) or transport (cardiac output) are better so statement "super-responding is also a talent" is not such a b***t (as many say). It's also likely that a super responder has worse natural blood values (and therefore he gains relatively more by this form of doping) so you can also say he's "less talented" in this aspect.

 

[Sciatic]

I mean that if two cyclists use blood doping to achieve similar blood values then in case of a super responder either oxygen utilization (metabolism) or transport (cardiac output) are better so statement "super-responding is also a talent" is not such a b***t (as many say). It's also likely that a super responder has worse natural blood values (and therefore he gains relatively more by this form of doping) so you can also say he's "less talented" in this aspect.

I see what you're saying. It's likely more complicated than that as is everything about bodies.

 

[SHAD0W93]

After riding an e bike for the first time I think the theory of Pogacar using a motor has even less credibility. Definitely on something high tech and maybe that crazy cocktail helped with his heat resistance. UAE also doesn’t seem to get bans if I recall vs like Visma with their issue a year and half or so ago.

 

[kingjr]

It's known that the UCI was complicit in a retro-TUE for testosterone, so, yes.

My question is whether they wouldn't have done the same for Ullrich. I think they would.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Pogacar and Jonas vinge have always been doping. Every time either made a big improvement, it was because they got some new stuff, or they improved their program, not because they started doping for the first time..

 

[Berniece]

After riding an e bike for the first time I think the theory of Pogacar using a motor has even less credibility. Definitely on something high tech and maybe that crazy cocktail helped with his heat resistance. UAE also doesn’t seem to get bans if I recall vs like Visma with their issue a year and half or so ago.

Every time when I ride my cargo bike uphill I get the complete opposite feeling you have. I don't think he actually uses a motor, but I always seem to accelerate similar to him.

 

[peterfin]

After riding an e bike for the first time I think the theory of Pogacar using a motor has even less credibility. Definitely on something high tech and maybe that crazy cocktail helped with his heat resistance. UAE also doesn’t seem to get bans if I recall vs like Visma with their issue a year and half or so ago.

The e bike is not comparable to a bike with a small motor delivering only 1/10th of the power. It's more like you continue to ride like usual but you speed up as your watt/kg increases (about 10% or Pogacar if the motor would have 40 watt output).

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Pogacar and Jonas vinge have always been doping. Every time either made a big improvement, it was because they got some new stuff, or they improved their program, not because they started doping for the first time..

Teddy aka "Mr Chubby face and tights" was mistrained early on and had a bad bike. Still he won two Tours thanks to his big talent. Once he started professional training and got a bike with round wheels he became unbeatable.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Pog destroyed Rog on crazy juice,which ran out in 2020. Why do you think Rogla is so resignated today. He knows. Jonas is getting there and so is Remco. Seixas started really early.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Every time when I ride my cargo bike uphill I get the complete opposite feeling you have. I don't think he actually uses a motor, but I always seem to accelerate similar to him.

Maybe it’s from what Peterfin described, since at least compared to the e bike I rode Pogacar didn’t have any accelerations like that.