Tadej Pogacar and Mauro Giannetti

[Rotted Melon]

...this all changed some time around 2020 and now we are seeing what humans are really capable of doing (probably even more than this but it is a good trajectory)...

Yeah, we got them big pulley wheels on rear derailleurs, ceramic bearings, and chain lubes made from graphene that all save watts. Watts man! WATTS!

The guys in the 90's and 00's were just as dead serious about training and how they lived back then as now. There's just more money and watt saving technology now (like inboard motors). WATTS!

 

[orbifold]

How is it possible that Pogacar is performing ten times worse here than, for example, in the Tour... mechanical doping. He looks 100 times more tired than after a tough Tour stage or a Monument. Ridiculous.

Romandie is an early Asian criterium, fake climbs, fake sprints. Mauro had promised the race organizers that one day he would bring Tadej. Zone 0-1 till the end and everyone is happy. He was constantly looking at the power meter not to accidentally drop the other 3 riders.

 

[Divergence]

What makes you think the sport was not professional prior to 2020? Marginal gains where already part of the sport. The major change was rider quality. WVA and MVDP coming from CX and talented youngsters like Evenepoel and Pogacar skipping the ranks and going directly to the Pro peleton. That influx of young talent had an impact. Nevertheless it doesn't explain the more recent crazy performances. La Redoute for example was just absurd. About 9 w/kg on a 4 min climb after almost 6 hours racing at 44 km/h is defying standard human biology. He should almost drop of the bike due to acid build up in his body! In contrast, his face shows nothing and he seems fully recovered immediately. So either the acid is neutralized using an illegal substance (most likely) or he uses a motor.

I do no think you eve read my post. I clearly wrote what they were doing and it is not optimal at all.

Operation Aderlass - examples of riders who were not caught by the passport:

Stefan Denifl - confessed to blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Georg Preidler - admitted blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Danilo Hondo - admitted to blood doping in (at least) 2011. No passport violation throughout his career.

Alessandro Petacchi - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Kristijan Koren - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Kristijan Đurasek - four-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Borut Božič - two-year ban. No passport violation throughout his career.

Pirmin Lang - admitted blood doping. No passport violation throughout his career.

Björn Thurau - long ban. No passport violation throughout his career.


Conclusion - blood doping is still relevant. Even 'lesser' riders can use transfusions without getting caught.

I am not saying the the passport is a great solution. I am saying that if you are blood doping with EPO or injecting testosterone like they were doing in the 90s you are going to get caught now. If you are micordosing (smaller quantities, smaller effects) maybe you can circumvent the system.

Yeah, we got them big pulley wheels on rear derailleurs, ceramic bearings, and chain lubes made from graphene that all save watts. Watts man! WATTS!

The guys in the 90's and 00's were just as dead serious about training and how they lived back then as now. There's just more money and watt saving technology now (like inboard motors). WATTS!

Sure the bikes are better now, but the training is way better. I am quite sure of that.
Also, they are to using motors in the pro peloton.

 

[meat puppet]

The training argument should be better specified IMHO.

What changed exactly, and what are the expected positive changes in key physiological variables?

I for one believe that training evolves and this is driven by competition, individualisation and experimentation. This will have positive performance effects. But improvements in this domain are very often overstated. Arguments are also often wildly anecdotal. Sometimes they highlight particular coaches such as Sola now and Kerrison back in the days, as though there are some secrets.

At least in running the so-called double threshold method that is supposedly behind improved performance is discussed very explicitly and openly. Yet it comes down to very simple, logical and time-tested principles: maximisise load in a manner that is sustainable and specific enough to competition needs. Innovators started to tinker around this model in the 90s already, mind.

So quite often a sort of simple past fallacy is deployed. Athletes were not clueless yesteryear.

Re: Pog there has been a claim that he previously did not do "long intervals" and, exaggerating only slightly, including them has been the key. Assuming this was the case, I would find this a positive change, particularly in relation to GT performance. But I'm not buying that his performance jump could possibly have hinged on this. Threshold can be built with Z2 volume too. Allegedly that was his thing previously.

More generally, what I am skeptical of is that improved training could explain how roughly 6w/kg became roughly/almost 7w/kg in GT climbs. How seasoned top professionals made this jump after COVID-19 and 2023-24 in particular remains the puzzle at hand.

 

[Divergence]

The training argument should be better specified IMHO.

What changed exactly, and what are the expected positive changes in key physiological variables?

I for one believe that training evolves and this is driven by competition, individualisation and experimentation. This will have positive performance effects. But improvements in this domain are very often overstated. Arguments are also often wildly anecdotal. Sometimes they highlight particular coaches such as Sola now and Kerrison back in the days, as though there are some secrets.

At least in running the so-called double threshold method that is supposedly behind improved performance is discussed very explicitly and openly. Yet it comes down to very simple, logical and time-tested principles: maximisise load in a manner that is sustainable and specific enough to competition needs. Innovators started to tinker around this model in the 90s already, mind.

So quite often a sort of simple past fallacy is deployed. Athletes were not clueless yesteryear.

Re: Pog there has been a claim that he previously did not do "long intervals" and, exaggerating only slightly, including them has been the key. Assuming this was the case, I would find this a positive change, particularly in relation to GT performance. But I'm not buying that his performance jump could possibly have hinged on this. Threshold can be built with Z2 volume too. Allegedly that was his thing previously.

More generally, what I am skeptical of is that improved training could explain how roughly 6w/kg became roughly/almost 7w/kg in GT climbs. How seasoned top professionals made this jump after COVID-19 and 2023-24 in particular remains the puzzle at hand.

I believe I gave a few specific examples but I will try to make it clearer. The top riders nowadays are training a lot and very hard and always with ample of energy. I have to stress that this is true only for the best of the best (for example Rog lost some motivation to train and it is immediately obvious that he cannot cope with the best). Previously there might have been some riders who think they trained hard because it felt hard but, for what I gather they were always training whilst not consuming enough energy. That is why I wrote the anecdote about G. Riding around at 240W is garbage, coffee rides are garbage. You need to eat and train hard every day and that is what appears to me that Pog is doing and maybe just a few other riders. It is also very hard to live like this and do it throughout the year, something that Pog does. People used to train hard (but not really) only for a couple of months before a big objective.
I understand I do not have hard data to present all of this in the most structured way but that is what I believe drives the ever better performances we are witnessing.

 

[BubbaChuck]

Extra 600g of carbs/stage = Higher glycogen availability = +0.5 to 0.8 W/kg on the final climb. Thats not the whole story,but if we are talking in vacuum comparing last climb in gts.difference should be roughly 10% on last climb between the eras. We could test this easilly,lets pogacar or seixas take only half of carbs and see what happens.

 

[BubbaChuck]

And regarding hard training,my prediction is that big volume is only returning to pro cycling after decades of train less,but smarter.Itsnot pogacar that is really leading this trend,but seixas. Staying months on altitude,doing 350 rides,possibly even more races is gonna come back.Just wait to see,what paul is gonna push in couple of years.

 

[Divergence]

And regarding hard training,my prediction is that big volume is only returning to pro cycling after decades of train less,but smarter.Itsnot pogacar that is really leading this trend,but seixas. Staying months on altitude,doing 350 rides,possibly even more races is gonna come back.Just wait to see,what paul is gonna push in couple of years.

I think train smarter still holds. The caveat is that one need to both train smart and a lot . And that is hard work.

 

[BubbaChuck]

If we look at what seixas did during those 2 months,couple of numbers. Probably 160-220 hours on bike, rode 4500-5000 km and climbed over 100 k meters,thats like riding with bike on everest 11 times.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm not gonna say motors, but I've always thought that whatever it is they were on is short acting, and taking the day before or the morning of.

I've based it on the miraculous turnarounds and sometimes crazy results in stages where riders probably didn't expect to need to maximize their dose.

But what (besides motors) could act so quickly? Stuff like EPO and CO require some physiological response time. Maybe BBs?

 

[Red Rick]

But what (besides motors) could act so quickly? Stuff like EPO and CO require some physiological response time. Maybe BBs?

How would i know.

I'm also not dismissing long acting stuff, or stuff being used outside of races to increase training load. If anything I'd expect Pogacar to also be megadosing the off race stuff to explain why the training load and endurance can be so high.

But the most hilarious examples for the short-acting theory are Rohand Dennis (and Ineos in general) in the 2020 Giro and Brandon McNulty in the 2022 TdF.

 

[Divergence]

How would i know.

I'm also not dismissing long acting stuff, or stuff being used outside of races to increase training load. If anything I'd expect Pogacar to also be megadosing the off race stuff to explain why the training load and endurance can be so high.

But the most hilarious examples for the short-acting theory are Rohand Dennis (and Ineos in general) in the 2020 Giro and Brandon McNulty in the 2022 TdF.

Dennis was pretty ridiculous but he was good for a couple of years at least.
The most egregious case has to be Mark Padun. What was that?

 

[Krzysztof_O]

I'm also not dismissing long acting stuff, or stuff being used outside of races to increase training load. If anything I'd expect Pogacar to also be megadosing the off race stuff to explain why the training load and endurance can be so high.

Yes, base training with sky-high VO2max should help with elevating Z2 and Z3 to sick levels as well.

 

[Red Rick]

Dennis was pretty ridiculous but he was good for a couple of years at least.
The most egregious case has to be Mark Padun. What was that?

Seriosuly Padun winning an HC MTF by a pretty regular gap (tailwind too I'm pretty sure) and winning a stage from a breakaway with a fairly normal climbing suddenly being treated like the single most suss thing ever (while Pogacar gaining 3 minutes in the first mountain stage 3 weeks later was completely normal) just feels like a psyop to me.

 

[Divergence]

Seriosuly Padun winning an HC MTF by a pretty regular gap (tailwind too I'm pretty sure) and winning a stage from a breakaway with a fairly normal climbing suddenly being treated like the single most suss thing ever (while Pogacar gaining 3 minutes in the first mountain stage 3 weeks later was completely normal) just feels like a psyop to me.

Dude never did anything before or after that. That is the sus part. But, who knows...

 

[Netserk]

But what (besides motors) could act so quickly? Stuff like EPO and CO require some physiological response time. Maybe BBs?

bb and hboc