Taking away Pantani's 1998 TdF win?

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In this scenario, should Pantani keep being recognised as the winner?

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Apr 20, 2009
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Eshnar said:
maybe you meant 80's ? :confused:
Actually Eshnar, I meant exactly what I said... mid 90's. To be clear, while doping and cheating have been part cycling since it's inception (just like every other organized sport), organized and systematic team doping started then. I was involved with sponsors of La Vie Claire, Motorola, and later Fassa Bortolo, and in relatively close contact with team management and riders. The changes in professional cycling over that timeline were jaw dropping.

For me it was watching the embarrassing results of the 1994 La Fleche Wallone from the press room, when Gewiss Ballan ripped he mask of what a true "program" can be... and nobody missed the point. From Mapei to Festina, to U.S. Postal it has been an open joke ever since. I never fooled myself in those early years that I was watching clean racing, but the downward progression has been sad to see.

Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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VeloFidelis said:
Actually Eshnar, I meant exactly what I said... mid 90's. To be clear, while doping and cheating have been part cycling since it's inception (just like every other organized sport), organized and systematic team doping started then. I was involved with sponsors of La Vie Claire, Motorola, and later Fassa Bortolo, and in relatively close contact with team management and riders. The changes in professional cycling over that timeline were jaw dropping.

For me it was watching the embarrassing results of the 1994 La Fleche Wallone from the press room, when Gewiss Ballan ripped he mask of what a true "program" can be... and nobody missed the point. From Mapei to Festina, to U.S. Postal it has been an open joke ever since. I never fooled myself in those early years that I was watching clean racing, but the downward progression has been sad to see.

Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
^ thnx VF. good post.

so now, programs, just have the plausible deniability risk quotient established and catered for.

obfuscation and deniability are just as big a part as the doctors, and mrs rumsas/motoman now
 
VeloFidelis said:
Actually Eshnar, I meant exactly what I said... mid 90's. To be clear, while doping and cheating have been part cycling since it's inception (just like every other organized sport), organized and systematic team doping started then. I was involved with sponsors of La Vie Claire, Motorola, and later Fassa Bortolo, and in relatively close contact with team management and riders. The changes in professional cycling over that timeline were jaw dropping.

For me it was watching the embarrassing results of the 1994 La Fleche Wallone from the press room, when Gewiss Ballan ripped he mask of what a true "program" can be... and nobody missed the point. From Mapei to Festina, to U.S. Postal it has been an open joke ever since. I never fooled myself in those early years that I was watching clean racing, but the downward progression has been sad to see.

Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
well if you only meant that cycling got from bad to worse in those days then I can believe you. Your statement looked like you were implying that the previous results were somewhat legit.
Just one thing
VeloFidelis said:
I was around pro cycling during Pantani's rise to fame. He was a megalomaniacal nut case, who referred to himself in the third person,
Ok I got you don't like him, but that's just not true. He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.

edit: I can recall he did it when he got busted in '99, and that's it.
 
I think it is fair to say that the casual acceptance within road cycling of lesser (for want of a better word) drugs pre vector doping, laid the foundations for what happened during the nineties, without such a casual attitude towards peds pre EPO, then the circus of the nineties might not have happened, there would still be cheats yes, but on the same level where 90% of riders where involved, perhaps not.
 
Apr 20, 2009
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Eshnar said:
well if you only meant that cycling got from bad to worse in those days then I can believe you. Your statement looked like you were implying that the previous results were somewhat legit.
Just one thing

Ok I got you don't like him, but that's just not true. He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.

edit: I can recall he did it when he got busted in '99, and that's it.
Interpretation on your part does not create implication on mine... just sayin.

I watched Pantani do it, both on and off camera at the 2001 Giro, where he was understandably losing his sh!t, and what was left of his mind. I have a hard time believing that he only did it when I was there to see.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Eshnar said:
He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.
No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
 
Race Radio said:
No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
Well I'm searching for interviews of him on youtube and I can't find many of such third persons. Just one. I kind of remember it got worse after his DSQ though. But he was cocaine dependent anyway at that time.
 
Jan 23, 2013
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VeloFidelis said:
Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
Perfectly stated, IMO.

I, also, couldn't care less about the record books. Watching racing is fun. Reading record books is less fun, regardless of whose names are written in them. The riders aren't heroes to me, more like circus performers in the Greatest Shows on Earth.
 
Race Radio said:
No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
Yeah Marco told me the same thing. Last time when I channelled Marco we talked about it. Very common if your on the inside to know these things. On a spiritual level that is :rolleyes:
 
Jun 25, 2013
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VeloFidelis said:
Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
For argument's sake, why shouldn't Froome take solace from this if he actually is a doper? Keeps the title and prize money but just can't put the tour in his personal accolades' column.
 
spalco said:
As mentioned here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-shorts-better-day-for-quickstep-a-new-winner-for-1998-tour

If some of the 1998 retroactive positivs are found to be Pantani's, should his victory be stricken from the record?

Maybe I'm biased because I still like Pantani, but removing a dead man's palmares seems awfully revisionist to me. What do you think?

eta: sorry for confusingly phrasing the poll differently from the thread, hopefully everyone gets it.
Of course removing his palmares is revisionist. That's exactly what revising the record means!
 
Race Radio said:
No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
Perfectly normal with italian athletes and even more with brazillians.

It comes from media training, they are coached so much more than athletes from other countries that they get tired of the pre-packaged lines they're taught to deliver and of the character they're putting on for the camera that they subconsciously start thinking of their media persona as separate from themselves since it's so far removed from their real personality.

Eventually they're talking about this persona in the third person and don't even realize it. It's very well documented with many examples throughout several sports.
Most stereotypical of brazillian footballers

Exact same reason why Bob Dole did it
 
Aug 20, 2013
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VeloFidelis said:
Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
You are saying as they (P and L)were on an even playing field - both riders results should stand - or both riders results should go.

I like the let them all stand.
 
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