y u no believe in Indurain?!?!Eshnar said:Dunno, there are naive people out there but mid 90's, just no.
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y u no believe in Indurain?!?!Eshnar said:Dunno, there are naive people out there but mid 90's, just no.
Eshnar said:maybe you meant 80's ?
^ thnx VF. good post.VeloFidelis said:Actually Eshnar, I meant exactly what I said... mid 90's. To be clear, while doping and cheating have been part cycling since it's inception (just like every other organized sport), organized and systematic team doping started then. I was involved with sponsors of La Vie Claire, Motorola, and later Fassa Bortolo, and in relatively close contact with team management and riders. The changes in professional cycling over that timeline were jaw dropping.
For me it was watching the embarrassing results of the 1994 La Fleche Wallone from the press room, when Gewiss Ballan ripped he mask of what a true "program" can be... and nobody missed the point. From Mapei to Festina, to U.S. Postal it has been an open joke ever since. I never fooled myself in those early years that I was watching clean racing, but the downward progression has been sad to see.
Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
well if you only meant that cycling got from bad to worse in those days then I can believe you. Your statement looked like you were implying that the previous results were somewhat legit.VeloFidelis said:Actually Eshnar, I meant exactly what I said... mid 90's. To be clear, while doping and cheating have been part cycling since it's inception (just like every other organized sport), organized and systematic team doping started then. I was involved with sponsors of La Vie Claire, Motorola, and later Fassa Bortolo, and in relatively close contact with team management and riders. The changes in professional cycling over that timeline were jaw dropping.
For me it was watching the embarrassing results of the 1994 La Fleche Wallone from the press room, when Gewiss Ballan ripped he mask of what a true "program" can be... and nobody missed the point. From Mapei to Festina, to U.S. Postal it has been an open joke ever since. I never fooled myself in those early years that I was watching clean racing, but the downward progression has been sad to see.
Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
Ok I got you don't like him, but that's just not true. He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.VeloFidelis said:I was around pro cycling during Pantani's rise to fame. He was a megalomaniacal nut case, who referred to himself in the third person,
Eshnar said:well if you only meant that cycling got from bad to worse in those days then I can believe you. Your statement looked like you were implying that the previous results were somewhat legit.
Just one thing
Ok I got you don't like him, but that's just not true. He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.
edit: I can recall he did it when he got busted in '99, and that's it.
Eshnar said:He probably did it a couple of times, but certainly not systematically - people do it sometimes, even sane people you know.
Well I'm searching for interviews of him on youtube and I can't find many of such third persons. Just one. I kind of remember it got worse after his DSQ though. But he was cocaine dependent anyway at that time.Race Radio said:No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
VeloFidelis said:Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
Race Radio said:No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
VeloFidelis said:Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.
spalco said:As mentioned here: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tou...-day-for-quickstep-a-new-winner-for-1998-tour
If some of the 1998 retroactive positivs are found to be Pantani's, should his victory be stricken from the record?
Maybe I'm biased because I still like Pantani, but removing a dead man's palmares seems awfully revisionist to me. What do you think?
eta: sorry for confusingly phrasing the poll differently from the thread, hopefully everyone gets it.
Race Radio said:No, this was a common thing for Marco. I have heard it and heard about it
Netserk said:It'd be sad if cycling forgot it's history.
Yep, lets remove the Cima Coppi from the Giro.del1962 said:Which has nowt to do with honoring one of the biggest dopers in its history.
Fearless Greg Lemond said:Yep, lets remove the Cima Coppi from the Giro.
del1962 said:Why don't you start a thread on Coppi's doping then.
Dr. Maserati said:You are entitled to your opinion but I have to ask - do you share the same scorn for Tom Simpson?
del1962 said:Sad that next years Giro is going to have stages dedicated to the doper
You are saying as they (P and L)were on an even playing field - both riders results should stand - or both riders results should go.VeloFidelis said:Getting back to the OP's question... Pantani was a mutant and a psycho, just like Lance. I watched them race and I never believed it was clean. Whether they take away titles or not... I couldn't care less. But they should at least note their results as utter bullsh!t.