TdF TTT - GC winners & losers

[The Hitch]

People have won GTs with less team support than Evans had when he came in 2nd, 5th or 30th.

Of course, team strength is a factor, but keep in mind that Evans chose BMC over far better teams. Weak-*** BMC was his team of choice. They may have a good team next year, but not this year, and definitely not in 2010. He also chose to stay with Lotto for god knows how many years.

When did taking responsibility for one's actions go out the window?

I understand your point but I think it isnt totaly fair to say that Evans chose his team, hence reaps what he sows.

Luck has a lot to do with it.

Even if Evans shouldnt have subjected ACF to cheering for BMC for 2 years, I still dont think its fair that he should be given a deficit at the start of a race.

Also luck plays a huge part. Some riders, especially if their country happens to have a team at that time, get a super GT squad set up around them - Gesink, Wiggins, to an extent Nibali Basso, while others like Cuddles, Vino in his earlier career, do not.

Cuddles made the choice of choosing a weak team and as a result he has to fight harder in the mountains, but at least in the mountains he still has a chance, he gets his own time. In a ttt, he gets given a deficit just to start.

 

[Angliru]

Back on topic, I am not saying that it isn't a good event to watch but it is not necessary to be a factor in a grand tour. Ultimately cycling is an individual sport where the strongest riders battle it out in the mountains, time trials, on various road surfaces and weather conditions. A team race doesn't need to decide an individual classification.

I'll bet your tune would change if Evans had a strong team in the TTT. The TTT is traditionally a part of the sport. It's not used every year so it isn't a constant factor in determining who has an advantage and who doesn't. Like the occasional use of cobbled stages and the increase and decrease in TT miles. IMO it is beautiful event to behold especially with the teams that are quite proficient at it. Depending on the distance of the TTT stage it can quickly put an end to many contenders hopes but I think that is why it is used only occasionally.

 

[dlwssonic]

evans has a more than decent team for the TTT anyway, he would not be the one losing time.

 

[just some guy]

evans has a more than decent team for the TTT anyway, he would not be the one losing time.

losing on who - BMC if they ride really well 4-5 most likely 6-8 so he will lose time and probably Andy and Frank at least - Thought you want Andy to win ?

 

[dlwssonic]

losing on who - BMC if they ride really well 4-5 most likely 6-8 so he will lose time and probably Andy and Frank at least - Thought you want Andy to win ?

but he wouldnt lose such a massive amount of time like some other people are saying. I think andy will win but of cause I want evans to win eventhough its not likely. Andy would be my 2nd choice.

 

[roundabout]

In the TTT it's possible to gain time based on other people's strength.

Then again some GT have been won* by having a stronger team in the mountains

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2004/giro04/?id=results/stage16

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2005//vuelta05/?id=results/vuelta0515

Is it unfair as the individual strength was responsible for just the initial gap and the attacks would probably not have happened at those points without a strong team?

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I understand your point but I think it isnt totaly fair to say that Evans chose his team, hence reaps what he sows.

Luck has a lot to do with it.

Even if Evans shouldnt have subjected ACF to cheering for BMC for 2 years, I still dont think its fair that he should be given a deficit at the start of a race.

Also luck plays a huge part. Some riders, especially if their country happens to have a team at that time, get a super GT squad set up around them - Gesink, Wiggins, to an extent Nibali Basso, while others like Cuddles, Vino in his earlier career, do not.

Cuddles made the choice of choosing a weak team and as a result he has to fight harder in the mountains, but at least in the mountains he still has a chance, he gets his own time. In a ttt, he gets given a deficit just to start.

Yeah, you're right. A TTT has no place in a GT.

What ASO essentially is saying is that a long TTT has no place in the Tour anymore, but even a short-ish one can cost a rider like Sanchez a podium spot. I wouldn't be surprised if Euskaltel lost about a minute or more to the top team(s), and BMC like 30 seconds.

Yes, completely unacceptable.

 

[Oreknan]

a question: what happens if some riders of a team abandoned and have only 4 riders or less?

 

[dlwssonic]

a question: what happens if some riders of a team abandoned and have only 4 riders or less?

it would not happen after 1 day of racing.

 

[movingtarget]

People have won GTs with less team support than Evans had when he came in 2nd, 5th or 30th.

Of course, team strength is a factor, but keep in mind that Evans chose BMC over far better teams. Weak-*** BMC was his team of choice. They may have a good team next year, but not this year, and definitely not in 2010. He also chose to stay with Lotto for god knows how many years.

When did taking responsibility for one's actions go out the window?

Well did Evans know that Dekker and Kohl were on dope ? They looked like being good buys for the team. He had no control over that situation. Can you you name the team and rider who has won a grand tour and had a weaker team than Evans had ? I can't think of one in the last twenty years at least not in the TDF. The team trial is dull and tedious. If people are that hard up up to watch a team trial they should watch track racing instead. It adds nothing to the race. A prologue and two individual time trials should be enough. This year though I would have preferred to see a second individual time trial instead of a tedious TTT.

 

[Winterfold]

hmmm

Im not going to spend any more time trying to explain to people who dont like the TTT why they are wrong.

It is their right to be wrong. And I respect that.

If they cannot see that it is fundamental to the sport of road racing that 2+2 = 5 moaning at them on Interwebs cannot help. Only riding a chaingang with their buddies and going faster than any of them could alone can show the truth.

I do think people how favour climbing over everything else do not value the skills of the sport as much as genetics and fitness. Skills are great - skills are how lazy and fat people or just people who like a beer can rebalance events against those who only eat lettuce or those fall off their bikes if Spartacus takes their stabilisers off and does not hold their hand.

 

[movingtarget]

Well I enjoy all aspects of the race except the TTT. I just think it's out of place but I guess there are some people that love the sprinting aspect and find the climbing dull, as well. Each to their own.

 

[Angliru]

hmmm

Im not going to spend any more time trying to explain to people who dont like the TTT why they are wrong.

It is their right to be wrong. And I respect that.

If they cannot see that it is fundamental to the sport of road racing that 2+2 = 5 moaning at them on Interwebs cannot help. Only riding a chaingang with their buddies and going faster than any of them could alone can show the truth.

I do think people how favour climbing over everything else do not value the skills of the sport as much as genetics and fitness. Skills are great - skills are how lazy and fat people or just people who like a beer can rebalance events against those who only eat lettuce or those fall off their bikes if Spartacus takes their stabilisers off and does not hold their hand.

You kind of lost me in that last paragraph.

 

[The Hitch]

Cheers Parrulo

ACF - from you that is a compliment

other dude - I DO enjoy the TTT and I DO think people who say they 'hate' the TTT are missing out on a test of precision, skill and teamwork that you do not see elsewhere in the GT which is a part of the sport as much as any other. People who only want to watch 60kg guys rip each others balls off in the high mountains dont appreciate the full spectacle of the sport.

the cancer bit was obvious sarcasm and a reference to the glory years - I'm not apologising for it though - I couldn't care less if we dont share a sense of humour.

I can appreciate a ttt and enjoy watching them, i just think its extremely unfair to punish people because someone else did bad (see Vino Štangelj) and i dont believe that a team leaders ttt time comes down to his bike handling skills.

 

[VeloCity]

Of course a strong team helps. And helps in many way on many stages. Frankly, I accept that many here dislike the TTT. What I disagree with is the argument that the TTT is inordinanetly unfair. And this is where most of the arguments against the TTT finaly land. My contention is that no more unfair than having a strong team through-out the race. All I've heard is how such and such rider can lose x amount of time just because they dont have a strong time trialing team. But rarely is the flip side acknowledged - that a strong mountian team likely insures that that same rider not lose time on mountain stages. Certainly, strong TT teams have readily apparent tangible benefits; team strengths elsewhere provide immeasurable, but no less tangible benefits. Focusing on only one side is avoiding the issue raised.

It's inordinately unfair because if Andy's hypothetical 4th teammate loses 40 minutes on a mountain stage, Andy doesn't also automatically lose 40 minutes. But if Andy's hypothetical 4th teammate crashes and causes Leopard to lose 2 minutes in the TTT while they wait for him to catch back on, then Andy automatically also loses 2 minutes. That's just silly.

And no, the TTT is NOT a reflection of how strong a team is, it's a reflection of how strong a team's 5th rider is on that particular day over that particular course, and how much luck they have in avoiding crashes, flats, mechanical problems, etc over that particular course on that particular day.

I love TTT's, I just don't think they have any place counting toward GC.

 

[Havetts]

No it isnt, it is something on the collective of the team. Why should there be no special type of race for teams with strong synergy and GC riders, you ride the sport as a team.

 

[The Hitch]

No it isnt, it is something on the collective of the team. Why should there be no special type of race for teams with strong synergy and GC riders, you ride the sport as a team.

Because no matter how well the team does, at the end of the day the only one standing on the podium, getting a warm reception in their home country, getting nominated for sports awards, is the guy who comes first in the "individual classification". It will be like there never was a ttt.

Even if they win based on time they got from ttt.

You want a special type of race for teams. Fair enough. Must you however impose the times from this team race over which team leaders have little control over, onto the individuals?

 

[Havetts]

Well, isnt it a reward knowing that the person you are working for is standing on that podium? And yes I do think it has its place in the race, working as a collective for the individual, aka teamwork.

 

[Cerberus]

You kind of lost me in that last paragraph.

As a service to the community I'll translate Winterfold's post.

*dons Winterfold hat*
"I like TTT's and if you don't like TTT's you suck, but since "like" is a matter of preference, I'll simply haughtily declare I'm right, rather than pointlessly argue for what is purely a matter of taste. Also [and this is the last paragraph] I feel climbing plays to large a role in the Tour, and since the Schlecks are pure climbers i hate their skinny little guts".

 

[VeloCity]

Well, isnt it a reward knowing that the person you are working for is standing on that podium?

Well, flip that around - doesn't it suck knowing that you cost the person you're working for a place on the podium because you and your teammates cost him minutes in the TTT? Which is far more often the case.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Can you you name the team and rider who has won a grand tour and had a weaker team than Evans had ? I can't think of one in the last twenty years at least not in the TDF.

Index-Alexia Aluminio is the obvious example. Savoldelli essentially won the Giro without a team.

 

[Winterfold]

Cerberus translation much better than my post.

I would just like to point out I don't hate pure climbers or bad bike handlers - I just think they have to take their chances in stages that don't suit - just like rouleurs must suffer in the mountains. And not have the 'patron' neutralise the stage.

 

[El Pistolero]

Index-Alexia Aluminio is the obvious example. Savoldelli essentially won the Giro without a team.

And Alberto Contador. He basically had no team around him when things went uphill this year's Giro. In the flat and medium stages they did well to keep him up front though.

 

[Scansorial]

I think we're all losers here. I don't mind TTTs as a whole if they're short like this one, but when there's only one ITT in the entire race I would rather scrap the TTT for another ITT.

 

[dutchie]

How do people think AG2R will do in the TTT,have had a good year to date with a strong team without any 1 individual standing out.