Team Dynamics

[rick bensco]

Can any one tell me if there was a team who supported a top GC rider as well as a top sprinter. I'm thinking of Columbia with Cavo and KK. Is it possible to support both? My thoughts are the team gets to burned out with sprint lead-outs to help a GC guy in the mountains. Has it ever happened?

 

[ingsve]

I don't know about further back then 97 but perhaps Telekom in the Zabel+Ullrich years.

 

[rick bensco]

Thanks! Was Zabel as dominating as Cavo and could he carry himself over the mountains, which Cavo seems to have a hare time doing. I like Team Columbia and hope they can do both. After watching the tour Suisse and Columbia's domination of everything but the GC I hope KK can pull it of what a surprise that would be to Team Astana.

 

[rick bensco]

Wow isn't columbia the remnants of teltkom?

 

[ingsve]

I think the main conclusion to be drawn is that they are not hoping for anything really spectacular to happen in GC. They have made sure to have a team that can back up Cav and then a few places are left for GC riders to see what they can manage. I'm not even sure KK is their best guy for GC. I hardly think they have specifically buildt the team to help a specific GC rider.

 

[jaylew]

LPR did it this year with DiLuca and Petacchi. Lotto in the past with Cadel and Robbie.

 

[anubisza]

I don't think Telekom in the '90s were a good indication of a team that supported both - they tried to support Ullrich, and pretty much left Zabel to himself.. In hindsight if they had supported Zabel more than Ullrich, they would have got a lot more results..

 

[workingclasshero]

cervelo will be trying for both green and yellow this year (hushovd/sastre)

but i guess generally it won't be done often with success in the tour, see how mcewen was left to himself while lotto put all their team effort into help evans (not that they did that very well!)

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

I don't think Telekom in the '90s were a good indication of a team that supported both - they tried to support Ullrich, and pretty much left Zabel to himself.. In hindsight if they had supported Zabel more than Ullrich, they would have got a lot more results..

Are you saying Zabel didn't get good results? 12 stage wins and six green jerseys in his career aren't good results?

Susan

 

[Jasper]

I think it is impossible for a team to be completely dominating in both areas, just as US Postal did in the mountains for Armstrong, and Fassa Bortolo or Saeco for Petacchi and Cipollini in the sprints. What is possible is a mixed team with mainly mountain men working for a GC contender, and one sprinter with maybe one leadout man. Think Rabobank with Menchov and Freire, or Silence with Evans and formerly McEwen. But those are sprinters that don't necessarily need a leadout train, so it's a different thing, it's not dominating both fields.

It's just a question of numbers in the end. How much men does it take to completely dominate a sprint stage? At least two during the stage to chase breakaways, and perhaps 4 or 5 to control the bunch in the last few kilometres and form a train for the sprinter in the last 2km. That's at least 6 or 7 guys, who will have to repeat this trick like ten times during the course of the GT. It goes without saying that you can barely use those guys in mountain stages, let alone keep two or three to drag your climber over the biggest cols. Same goes for a mountain team. And the climbing types that drag the peloton all the way up the Tourmalet are usually not very usefull in a sprint leadout anyway. Jens Voigt being the exception that confirms the rule

 

[anubisza]

Are you saying Zabel didn't get good results? 12 stage wins and six green jerseys in his career aren't good results?

Susan

Nope not saying he didn't get good results - of course he did. I'm saying he should have got better results with better support.

 

[rick bensco]

I think it is impossible for a team to be completely dominating in both areas, just as US Postal did in the mountains for Armstrong, and Fassa Bortolo or Saeco for Petacchi and Cipollini in the sprints. What is possible is a mixed team with mainly mountain men working for a GC contender, and one sprinter with maybe one leadout man. Think Rabobank with Menchov and Freire, or Silence with Evans and formerly McEwen. But those are sprinters that don't necessarily need a leadout train, so it's a different thing, it's not dominating both fields.

It's just a question of numbers in the end. How much men does it take to completely dominate a sprint stage? At least two during the stage to chase breakaways, and perhaps 4 or 5 to control the bunch in the last few kilometres and form a train for the sprinter in the last 2km. That's at least 6 or 7 guys, who will have to repeat this trick like ten times during the course of the GT. It goes without saying that you can barely use those guys in mountain stages, let alone keep two or three to drag your climber over the biggest cols. Same goes for a mountain team. And the climbing types that drag the peloton all the way up the Tourmalet are usually not very usefull in a sprint leadout anyway. Jens Voigt being the exception that confirms the rule

You expressed my thought completely. Big George can't lead out Cavo and be in the train to the sprint and not feel burned out when it is time for KK or Tony Martin in a mountain stage. I've seen him help lance in the mountains but not after having to work so hard in sprints.

 

[elapid]

Thanks! Was Zabel as dominating as Cavo and could he carry himself over the mountains, which Cavo seems to have a hare time doing. I like Team Columbia and hope they can do both. After watching the tour Suisse and Columbia's domination of everything but the GC I hope KK can pull it of what a surprise that would be to Team Astana.

Zabel was an excellent sprinter and also a more than decent climber. He was better at climbing than most sprinters, hence all the green jerseys in the TdF and the classic wins, particularly the Milan-San Remo. Raced all year round and, from a purely outside view, seemed to be a really nice guy.

 

[slcbiker]

You expressed my thought completely. Big George can't lead out Cavo and be in the train to the sprint and not feel burned out when it is time for KK or Tony Martin in a mountain stage. I've seen him help lance in the mountains but not after having to work so hard in sprints.

Actually, I'd think he could lead out well and then still be OK in the mountains. Lead outs typically require a very short time at a very high effort. Not necessarily something that is really going to burn you out.

It's the reverse that might be more a problem. If George goes really hard in the mountains, then maybe less good in a lead out.

 

[benpounder]

LPR did it this year with DiLuca and Petacchi. Lotto in the past with Cadel and Robbie.

Only on paper. Petacchi ended up riding for Di Luca, and hoped for good luck in the sprints (and I did appreciate him nipping Cav ). Robbie McEwen was always a punchy and opportunistic sprinter: he did not need a train to win, and in fact, most of his wins are on the tails of other team's trains.

I may be mistaken, but I dont recall a modern era TdF team ever winning both Green and Yellow. Too much to worry about that may adversley affect the other, and more coveted goal

 

[uphillstruggle]

Team Telekom won yellow and green in 96 and 97. That is, however, over ten years ago now so I don't know if you think that qualifies as modern era.

 

[karlboss]

it is still possible to support both, depending on the sprinter and GC hopeful. Especially if there isn't a TTT in the race. I mean if you need a cipo lead out train, things become difficult. If you need the uphill train once again things become difficult. Great climbers don't need much support i don't recall pantani having too many around him. Then there are sprinters like Mcewen who liked a helper, but did ok without. So I suppose you could win both with a team of 4...of course a couple to keep the pace high before sprint finishes and control breakaways might be handy. This year I don't think there is a team who can do the double...maybe rabo, as menchov and gesink can look after themselves, and friere won't need too much support either, the rest of the team is well and truly strong enough to cover all else, the question is can friere take Cav and menchov contador...probably not.

 

[benpounder]

Team Telekom won yellow and green in 96 and 97. That is, however, over ten years ago now so I don't know if you think that qualifies as modern era.

I'd say that is the modern era. Riis, Ullrich, and Zabel present another problem however...

 

[Christian]

I think Columbia will be fine. They have good ol' George, Grabsch and Renshaw for the lead-outs, that still leaves them with Maxime Monfort, Tony Martin and Michael Rogers to help Kimi in the mountains. They'll definitely do better than last year, when Kirchen was by himself on every single climb because Sioutsou and Lövkvist couldn't follow.