Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

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Feb 22, 2014
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the sceptic said:
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You seem to disagree. Care to explain why it's not possible that there are several Froome's per cohort of riders who for millions of reasons don't fulfill their potential?

Or perhaps we can agree that if he had ridden a poor Vuelta he would have been seeking a new contract. And then who knows?
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
You seem to disagree. Care to explain why it's not possible that there are several Froome's per cohort of riders who for millions of reasons don't fulfill their potential?

Or perhaps we can agree that if he had ridden a poor Vuelta he would have been seeking a new contract. And then who knows?
Anything is possible. Cavendish could win the tour by 2 hours. The earth could get invaded by aliens. You could make a coherent post.

But, I have to go with the most likely scenario, that Froome started doping. Anything else is just wishful thinking and believing in unicorns.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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the sceptic said:
Anything is possible. Cavendish could win the tour by 2 hours. The earth could get invaded by aliens. You could make a coherent post.

But, I have to go with the most likely scenario, that Froome started doping. Anything else is just wishful thinking and believing in unicorns.
To be honest I expected a little more gratitude than that :rolleyes:

Froome stands out because all previous riders like him didn't get the new contract. Froome was a few weeks away from potentially suffering the same fate.

Agreed?

I have no problem if you put the subsequent improvement in performance down to unicorn serum. Obviously the well known PEDs are insufficiently potent. I'll stick with real-world explanations.
 
Ventoux Boar said:
Congratulations. Bingo! Jackpot. You've just explained the "mystery" behind Froome's early career. Late starter, unable to deliver consistently, facing loss of contract, gets healthy, experienced and no-doubt lucky. Otherwise just more unfulfilled potential.

Now put that prodigious intellect of yours to work on the new info from the Henao case, rather than reheating uninteresting leftovers.
What? No, you can't turn the argument around, it doesn't work like that. Just because early talent doesn't always fulfill its potential, it doesn't follow that lack of early talent isn't significant.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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hrotha said:
What? No, you can't turn the argument around, it doesn't work like that. Just because early talent doesn't always fulfill its potential, it doesn't follow that lack of early talent isn't significant.
I agree. But if many competitors from conventional backgrounds don't fulfill their potential, why is it a surprise that so few (almost none) riders from unconventional backgrounds succeed?

This is an explanation for how Froome could have remained an undiscovered talent. And why such a "donkey" was riding a GT for an ambitious WT team in the first place.
 
Ventoux Boar said:
To be honest I expected a little more gratitude than that :rolleyes:

Froome stands out because all previous riders like him didn't get the new contract. Froome was a few weeks away from potentially suffering the same fate.

Agreed?

I have no problem if you put the subsequent improvement in performance down to unicorn serum. Obviously the well known PEDs are insufficiently potent. I'll stick with real-world explanations.
Like blood doping? is that real world explanation?
 
roundabout said:
As a potential "British" winner sometime in the future (not within 5 years) Kennaugh probably made the most sense* pre 2009 TdF.

Finishing 3rd at the Girobio aged 20 against competition born in 1986-1987 is a very good result. Especially if he was clean.

*should super secret Froome WCC test results never be released
It is a very good result. But considering how many Tour Lav winners and world u23 winners have been busts, one can't just take a result like that, from a guy unproven in gts, unproven against senior riders, and say the guy is going to be a TDF winner before he becomes ineligible for the white jersey.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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The biggest question is Froome was good enough to almost win Vuelta 2011 yet he wasn't good enough to even make the team as a domestique for Wiggins for 2011 TDF. His contract was due to expire at the end of that year.
 
SundayRider said:
The biggest question is Froome was good enough to almost win Vuelta 2011 yet he wasn't good enough to even make the team as a domestique for Wiggins for 2011 TDF. His contract was due to expire at the end of that year.
Ripely's Believe it or Not?
 
Feb 22, 2014
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SundayRider said:
The biggest question is Froome was good enough to almost win Vuelta 2011 yet he wasn't good enough to even make the team as a domestique for Wiggins for 2011 TDF. His contract was due to expire at the end of that year.
Yes. This is incredibly difficult to understand since all riders are born with the ability to cope with this race and all team managers make flawless team selections. Especially inexperienced managers.

What might be more tricky to explain is why a guy in the last chance saloon - not fit to ride the big one - gets the keys to the gear.
 
Feb 22, 2014
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More generally. Forget trying to patch the holes in your agenda. That ship is sunk. Think hard about new information uncorked in the Henao case: #gamechanger
 
May 26, 2009
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hrotha said:
Hitch, I'm not saying I would have found it entirely normal if Kennaugh had won the Tour. Just that he was ahead of Wiggins and Froome in the "hmm, maybe some day?" category.
Hmm the Sky tea lady was ahead of Froome and Wiggins in the 'hmm, maybe some day' plan.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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Ventoux Boar said:
Yes. This is incredibly difficult to understand since all riders are born with the ability to cope with this race and all team managers make flawless team selections. Especially inexperienced managers.

What might be more tricky to explain is why a guy in the last chance saloon - not fit to ride the big one - gets the keys to the gear.
You don't just suddenly get the legs to do the ride he did at the Vuelta it just doesn't happen. Wiggins was going all out for the win in 2011 if they knew he was even within 5% of his Vuelta level he would have made that team.
 
Ventoux Boar said:
What might be more tricky to explain is why a guy in the last chance saloon - not fit to ride the big one - gets the keys to the gear.
What's tricky about "********! It's results or find a new WT team with few results like so many other riders."

A hidden assumption in your reasoning is the doping is expensive or somehow difficult to source when neither is true.
 
May 26, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
What's tricky about "********! It's results or find a new WT team with few results like so many other riders."

A hidden assumption in your reasoning is the doping is expensive or somehow difficult to source when neither is true.
Didn't a young AG2R guy get busted at the end of 2012, cause he was desperate to get another contract?
 
Ventoux Boar said:
I agree. But if many competitors from conventional backgrounds don't fulfill their potential, why is it a surprise that so few (almost none) riders from unconventional backgrounds succeed?
This is a failed argument.

What is "unconventional?" A large number of the riders develop in less visible niches like mountain biking and cyclocross then follow the money onto the road where they might or might not flourish. This observation is consistent with history including pre-EPO racing.

Ventoux Boar said:
I have no problem if you put the subsequent improvement in performance down to unicorn serum. Obviously the well known PEDs are insufficiently potent. I'll stick with real-world explanations.
Another failed argument. WADA plainly states they run at least 12 months behind current PED technology. That's just awareness, not implementing test protocols for the latest PED discovery.

At this point you are posting one false conclusion after another. Maybe it's time to adjust your world view to better fit what is known? This is an opportunity to post questions based on your perception and see if others agree.
 
Dec 13, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
Off the top of my head, I don't know. He wouldn't be the first.
Tyler mentioned it in the Secret Race - riders starting to doping/going high octane in the final year of their contracts.
 
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