Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[ferryman]

OK guys. Everyone take a chill pill please.

The petty bickering isn't doing anyone any favours and is putting the thread into serious free fall. And likely putting other posters off from contributing.

Think on this, we ALL want a dope free sport. In that, opinions on teams/riders etc can differ but I hope we are all here for the same reason.

Thank you in advance for agreeing

 

[Justinr]

2 months posting and you still dont get it or dont want to get it?

Poor little Bwadley wasn't nurtured till 2009 when Rod Ellingworth introduced him to a little cuddly syringe.................

I'm entitled to my view as much as you are yours. You posted an opinion on what you thought it meant, i posted my position.

And posting your last sentence there mocking a pretentious mothering voice really does show your true colours I'm afraid ...

 

[DirtyWorks]

Or perhaps: if he had been nurtured and coached better who knows how many races he would've won......

There's this well worn concept that a coach, on their own, somehow transforms athletes. In this day and age and this sport, that's unlikely.

Let's imagine Contador as clean, some renewed motivation, some luck, plays as much a role in the return to the podium as the coach hired.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Yes, it's laughable. Wikipedia still has him as a DS but who knows how up to date that is. Nevertheless, would be absurd for anyone to suggest or imagine Sky didn't know his background at the time of his hire (I've heard no one suggest this). ZTP is PR and it's that simple. It's meaningless, inconsistent and unworkable. Just words for the masses to feed on.

He is listed on the Sky Wesbite as a DS. I checked today.

 

[red_flanders]

He is listed on the Sky Wesbite as a DS. I checked today.

Ah, there we go. Knaven must have been cleans. ZTP and all...

 

[Granville57]

Ah, there we go. Knaven must have been cleans. ZTP and all...

Wasn't he the DS at Roubaix? His name leapt out at me and I couldn't believe he was still there. I thought maybe I had missed the predictable noise about his presences, but if not, shouldn't more be made of this?

ZTP

 

[red_flanders]

Wasn't he the DS at Roubaix? His name leapt out at me and I couldn't believe he was still there. I thought maybe I had missed the predictable noise about his presences, but if not, shouldn't more be made of this?

ZTP

I would think it would raise some questions.

He was found positive (as were all TVM team riders) in a 1998 report:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling-tvm-teams-riders-took-drug-cocktails-1184236.html

The findings are in a 200-page report sent to the judge handling the TVM case in Reims by doctors from an Albertville hospital, where blood tests were performed on the riders on 28 July.

Every rider tested positive for several banned substances including steroids and growth hormones. At least four used erythropoietin (EPO), which enhances the oxygen-carrying capacity of the blood. Three others were declared positive for amphetamines and a fourth for cannabis. The report said the riders used powerful "home- made cocktails" of banned substances.

Knaven claims he was vindicated in this. No charges were filed or sanctions given after the report. In addition to that positive finding, just about every team he rode for being well-documented to have been on the full gear, there is the 2001 win in PR, having bested a host of top-drawer dopers:

Knaven: Found positive in 1998 TVM report
Museeuw: Admitted doping
Vainsteins: Fuentes client
Hincapie: Admitted doping
Peeters: -
Ludo Dierckxsens: Caught doping
Steffen Wesemann: Implicated in Freiburg
Andrei Tchmil: -
Chris Peers: Convicted in Landuyt affair
Rølf Sørensen: Admitted doper


So. Easily verifiable that he doped, and blatantly obvious beyond that.

How has he survived the Sky ZTP purge? What's different about him than all the other well-known dopers that Sky have hired?

And back to the conversation we were starting to have several pages back, I would like to know what some of the reasonable posters think about this? Or have you also left the thread after the latest barrage of nonsense?

It seems to confirm that the ZTP is not legitimate. It beggars belief that somehow the principals at Sky who do the hiring would not have known about his or anyone else's history. Even if they did not know, (not believable) they would have to also not bothered to run a 5 minute check on Google.

Does this seem believable for any team? Let alone one with the ZTP? Why are so few journalists asking questions about this?

In my view this absolutely confirms that Sky are lying about ZTP. Does anyone believe otherwise? If we grant that they are lying about ZTP and who they hire, why? Why are they doing this?

The further down these paths one goes, the more difficult it becomes to construct a clean scenario for this team.

 

[oldcrank]

OK guys. Everyone take a chill pill please.

The petty bickering isn't doing anyone any favours and is putting the thread into serious free fall. And likely putting other posters off from contributing.

Think on this, we ALL want a dope free sport. In that, opinions on teams/riders etc can differ but I hope we are all here for the same reason.

Thank you in advance for agreeing

Yes, my friend, that is what we all want. To those
who feel they cannot directly contribute to this
goal, may I respectfully suggest that by passing
your passion and knowledge to the next generation
of cyclists you can indeed make a difference.

If, for example, you live in London please consider
volunteering with The Herne Hill Youth Cycling Club.
http://www.hhycc.com

If you reside in Sydney, Lidcombe Auburn CC has
a youth program.http://lacc.org.au

No matter where you live, there is probably a club
or organization that would welcome your time and
experience...and if there isn't, start one!

 

[the sceptic]

I would think it would raise some questions.

He was found positive (as were all TVM team riders) in a 1998 report:
http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/cycling-tvm-teams-riders-took-drug-cocktails-1184236.html



Knaven claims he was vindicated in this. No charges were filed or sanctions given after the report. In addition to that positive finding, just about every team he rode for being well-documented to have been on the full gear, there is the 2001 win in PR, having bested a host of top-drawer dopers:

Knaven: Found positive in 1998 TVM report
Museeuw: Admitted doping
Vainsteins: Fuentes client
Hincapie: Admitted doping
Peeters: -
Ludo Dierckxsens: Caught doping
Steffen Wesemann: Implicated in Freiburg
Andrei Tchmil: -
Chris Peers: Convicted in Landuyt affair
Rølf Sørensen: Admitted doper


So. Easily verifiable that he doped, and blatantly obvious beyond that.

How has he survived the Sky ZTP purge? What's different about him than all the other well-known dopers that Sky have hired?

And back to the conversation we were starting to have several pages back, I would like to know what some of the reasonable posters think about this? Or have you also left the thread after the latest barrage of nonsense?

It seems to confirm that the ZTP is not legitimate. It beggars belief that somehow the principals at Sky who do the hiring would not have known about his or anyone else's history. Even if they did not know, (not believable) they would have to also not bothered to run a 5 minute check on Google.

Does this seem believable for any team? Let alone one with the ZTP? Why are so few journalists asking questions about this?

In my view this absolutely confirms that Sky are lying about ZTP. Does anyone believe otherwise? If we grant that they are lying about ZTP and who they hire, why? Why are they doing this?

The further down these paths one goes, the more difficult it becomes to construct a clean scenario for this team.

Its pretty obvious to me at least that ZTP is just PR for the british muppets. Sky dont care one bit about who they hire, as long as they are "never tested positive". As soon as they become official dopers, they have to go.

Knaven is officially cleans, since he was never sanctioned so he can stick around.

The skybots cant have it both ways. If sky really are so stupid that they hired all these dopers without having a clue about their past, they cant also at the same time be cycling geniuses that can ride clean and beat doped competition.

 

[MartinGT]

Its pretty obvious to me at least that ZTP is just PR for the british muppets. Sky dont care one bit about who they hire, as long as they are "never tested positive". As soon as they become official dopers, they have to go.

Knaven is officially cleans, since he was never sanctioned so he can stick around.

The skybots cant have it both ways. If sky really are so stupid that they hired all these dopers without having a clue about their past, they cant also at the same time be cycling geniuses that can ride clean and beat doped competition.

Can we f@cking pack it in with this sort of sh!t.

Mods, do your f@cking jobs and sort it out. I am f@cking sick of reading this sort of w@nk.

 

[red_flanders]

Its pretty obvious to me at least that ZTP is just PR for the british muppets. Sky dont care one bit about who they hire, as long as they are "never tested positive". As soon as they become official dopers, they have to go.

Knaven is officially cleans, since he was never sanctioned so he can stick around.

The skybots cant have it both ways. If sky really are so stupid that they hired all these dopers without having a clue about their past, they cant also at the same time be cycling geniuses that can ride clean and beat doped competition.

Not really helping the discussion insulting everyone who is a Sky fan. Agree on the Knaven/cleans, but I would like to engage with those who were discussing this from the perspective that they need more evidence.

I really would like to hear what say Timmers and Justinr think about this all the other comments about Sky performances which have cropped up in response to their last few posts. I thought that discussion was productive.

 

[red_flanders]

Can we f@cking pack it in with this sort of sh!t.

Mods, do your f@cking jobs and sort it out. I am f@cking sick of reading this sort of w@nk.

Look I agree with you but please report it instead of adding to it.

 

[the sceptic]

Can we f@cking pack it in with this sort of sh!t.

Mods, do your f@cking jobs and sort it out. I am f@cking sick of reading this sort of w@nk.

I dont mean to say the british are any worse than other countries at this, all countries have these kind of people who dont really care that much about the sport but only tune into to get their nationalistic fix. These are the people that ZTP is aimed on. Your average joe who likes to tune in for the big races, and knows there has been a lot of doping in the sport. He is the guy that needs to be assured that sky are cleans. ZTP is not aimed to convince people follow the sport more closely.

Anyway,I am sorry if I offended you. Ill try to avoid anymore insults.

 

[Justinr]

Not really helping the discussion insulting everyone who is a Sky fan. Agree on the Knaven/cleans, but I would like to engage with those who were discussing this from the perspective that they need more evidence.

I really would like to hear what say Timmers and Justinr think about this all the other comments about Sky performances which have cropped up in response to their last few posts. I thought that discussion was productive.

Trying not to spend too much time on here as its holiday weekend and haven't read through all of them so will take me some time to catch up, but very unimpressed with the sort of bile we get with the 'British Muppets' type posts.

Banter is one thing - bashing me for my nationality is technically racism. Very unimpressed ...

EDIT - after seeing the posting thread & times, this response was written / posted at the same time as Sceptics so I didn't see his apology. All sorted from my point of view.

 

[sniper]

I would think it would raise some questions.
snipped

good post.

we already knew the ztp was a smokescreen, but i agree with you that the knaven-case seems to cement it.

here's Sky's staff line-up for the 2012 Dauphine which of course Wiggins won:
DS: Sean Yates
2nd DS: Servais Knaven
Doctor: Geert Leinders

While Knaven was never at Rabo, he may have had good contacts with Leinders (language brings people together).

Otoh, Leinders may of course turn out to be a red herring in the larger scheme of things. I mean there are more roads that lead to Rome. Still, I think the Sky-Lowlands link (de jongh, leinders, knaven) is salient.

 

[Justinr]

The skybots cant have it both ways. If sky really are so stupid that they hired all these dopers without having a clue about their past, they cant also at the same time be cycling geniuses that can ride clean and beat doped competition.

My view on this:

Initially a few years back I think they could claim ignorance or 'not proven' on the basis that (a) the house of cards hadn't been pulled down by Landis and others and (b) Sky management were not in touch with the Euro / Professional cycling scene so wouldn't have been as in tune to all the rumours.

Now I'm not saying that makes it all look ok, but it is at least a part explanation - you need to remember back to that time NOT what we now know about that time. Then, when it all cam out people signed up to ZTP or were out. Jullich & Barry were probably a bit of a surprise. Some others possibly less so.

Now since then ZTP does seem to have got a lot more "flexible". My hunch / feeling is that they are relying on personal sign ups / pledges. Does that make it right - not really. BUT (refer back to an earlier post of mine) I believe that people with a dodgy past can go forward as clean. I also believe the retirement of LA slowed down the arms race and freed up people to speak out, not be bullied and pursue a cleaner sport - hence my premise that people can go clean. Do we treat all previous thieves as futures thieves?

But I also believe that all teams will be pushing the envelope - I actually expect that (see my other thread on grey areas as well). I'm a great F1 fan and you see the same things there.

Just a quick one to keep Red_F happy

 

[the sceptic]

If Walsh was a real journalist, this is the kind of stuff he would be digging into.

But no, too busy dining with the Dawg and writing books.

 

[the sceptic]

Now since then ZTP does seem to have got a lot more "flexible". My hunch / feeling is that they are relying on personal sign ups / pledges. Does that make it right - not really. BUT (refer back to an earlier post of mine) I believe that people with a dodgy past can go forward as clean. I also believe the retirement of LA slowed down the arms race and freed up people to speak out, not be bullied and pursue a cleaner sport - hence my premise that people can go clean. Do we treat all previous thieves as futures thieves?

Well, yes. Im sure people can change. But even so, the whole point of ZTP was to not hire any dopers, change or not. So it still makes it look like a sham. If they wanted to rehabilitate dopers then they shouldnt have had any ZTP in the first place.

If sky were serious about zero tolerance, they would have done their homework on all these people, and done their utmost to avoid hiring people like this. (Im sure it is pretty difficult to find a DS with no dirt on him but they could have at least made a better effort).

Their attention to detail seems to be shockingly absent here, which makes me think it was just a set up to please the new arrival of cycling fans. (lets face it, the sky miracle brought a whole bunch of people as new fans that wouldnt have cared otherwise)

 

[Justinr]

If Walsh was a real journalist, this is the kind of stuff he would be digging into.

Walsh really does seem to have lost the dressing room here doesn't he ...

It does make me a laugh a bit though. Walsh was a well respected journo - then he spends to time with Sky and gives a lot of people an answer they don't like and all of a sudden he's not to be trusted.

 

[Justinr]

Well, yes. Im sure people can change. But even so, the whole point of ZTP was to not hire any dopers, change or not. So it still makes it look like a sham. If they wanted to rehabilitate dopers then they shouldnt have had any ZTP in the first place.

If sky were serious about zero tolerance, they would have done their homework on all these people, and done their utmost to avoid hiring people like this. (Im sure it is pretty difficult to find a DS with no dirt on him but they could have at least made a better effort).

Their attention to detail seems to be shockingly absent here, which makes me think it was just a set up to please the new arrival of cycling fans. (lets face it, the sky miracle brought a whole bunch of people as new fans that wouldnt have cared otherwise)

I agree on the general tone of this Sceptic. They (certainly initially) put themselves up as going the clean route, full transparency, with no-one from cycling's past - a noble stance but impractical, especially finding a DS with no dirt at all.

If they want to be flexible with ZTP then I'd rather they went the Garmin route : "Clean, but prepared to take previous reformed characters". However many people could argue about that - what if Lance turned up proclaiming to have seen the light. I guess neither is satisfactory.

As an aside, I'm also of the view that there have been different levels of doping in the past and that forgiveness for each of these should be on different levels. e.g. steroids (or low octane as many say here) in my view is on a different level than EPO / Blood doping. Then there is the whole level of force / bullying from team / management and other experimental stuff (e.g. Manzano). I'm not saying any of them are right or ok, but those are different levels of wrong in my view.

 

[Justinr]

I dont mean to say the british are any worse than other countries at this, all countries have these kind of people who dont really care that much about the sport but only tune into to get their nationalistic fix. These are the people that ZTP is aimed on. Your average joe who likes to tune in for the big races, and knows there has been a lot of doping in the sport. He is the guy that needs to be assured that sky are cleans. ZTP is not aimed to convince people follow the sport more closely.

Anyway,I am sorry if I offended you. Ill try to avoid anymore insults.

Apology accepted - I think we posted at the same time so I hadn't seen this when I posted mine.

 

[The Hitch]

Using the word "nationalistic" rather than"British" is probably the solution

 

[red_flanders]

Walsh really does seem to have lost the dressing room here doesn't he ...

It does make me a laugh a bit though. Walsh was a well respected journo - then he spends to time with Sky and gives a lot of people an answer they don't like and all of a sudden he's not to be trusted.

Or he stopped answering obvious questions and informed fans list respect. I find the idea that the observers of Walsh are only listening to what they want to hear just as unfounded as some of the Skybot comments.

Thx for the responses though, much appreciated.

 

[Ripper]

good post.

we already knew the ztp was a smokescreen, but i agree with you that the knaven-case seems to cement it.

here's Sky's staff line-up for the 2012 Dauphine which of course Wiggins won:
DS: Sean Yates
2nd DS: Servais Knaven
Doctor: Geert Leinders

While Knaven was never at Rabo, he may have had good contacts with Leinders (language brings people together).

Otoh, Leinders may of course turn out to be a red herring in the larger scheme of things. I mean there are more roads that lead to Rome. Still, I think the Sky-Lowlands link (de jongh, leinders, knaven) is salient.

When did SdJ start/stop with Sky? Was it 2009 - 2012?

 

[sniper]

When did SdJ start/stop with Sky? Was it 2009 - 2012?

wiki says 2010-2012.
pourquoi?