Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[Nathan12]

Just a slight aside, why do you say the 2009 TdF was the most doped up? Why more so than 2005 or 06 or 07 (or any other recent year).

It was one of the most doped, up to a point. Contador, Armstrong, the Schlecks and Kloden were clearly all cooking, probably Nibali and Kreuziger too. Apart from that it's a weird race- Casar and Le Mevel top 10, even Hincapie cracks the top 20. But to hang at the pointy end of that race was to hang with some of the finest dopers ever.

As an aside of my own, I'd love to know from Vaughters how Vande Velde got so good by stopping doping.

 

[the sceptic]

To Andy's credit he did show promise early on, and after his bad crash has completely lost his mojo. That's still much more believable than say Froome & Wiggo popping out of nowhere, the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

I dont disagree. But still, does anyone actually think Andy was clean?

 

[Dazed and Confused]

It was one of the most doped, up to a point. Contador, Armstrong, the Schlecks and Kloden were clearly all cooking, probably Nibali and Kreuziger too. Apart from that it's a weird race- Casar and Le Mevel top 10, even Hincapie cracks the top 20. But to hang at the pointy end of that race was to hang with some of the finest dopers ever.

As an aside of my own, I'd love to know from Vaughters how Vande Velde got so good by stopping doping.

He can ride without dope, but he can only give 110% now.

 

[red_flanders]

Well in cycling such a thing is much more likely than in running. In running you physically have to lift your own body weight with each stride, in cycling you don't - you're on a machine that will continue to roll so the physical effort is much less. I guess its like a 200m swimmer all of a sudden being top at the 10k swim. No idea if that is possible or if it has been done.

Its a good and valid comment though, but would have had much more effect if it had been Hoy that won the Tour or if Wiggins had been a top class sprint rider (and not a TT or pursuit rider).

Clearly an imperfect analogy, but yes the point being that while as an Olympic athlete you have to show some class in an event, that in no way translates to the same level (or anywhere near it) in other events.

The idea that because Wiggins was a great Olympic pursuit rider that he didn't come from nowhere as a GT rider is IMO false.

He rode GT's before 2009. He was a grupetto rider at best. His transformation was shocking to those of us who have been watching him previously. As was his 180 stance on dopers.

 

[peloton]

Yes and here we go again - full circle in The Clinic. As we all know Wiggins improved long before he was at Sky, and Froome had a blood parasite on and off for a couple of years (and one that doesn't always get cleared with one treatment). Shall we all click back to page 1?

No need to, you keep making the circles page after page

Can you give me a good reason why Sky's stage race results dramatically improved after they hired Dr. Leinders?

 

[peloton]

Not sure how a multiple Olympic medallist popped out from nowhere

Do tell the last time a track Olympic medalist won the Tour, I'm all ears

 

[martinvickers]

Well in cycling such a thing is much more likely than in running. In running you physically have to lift your own body weight with each stride, in cycling you don't - you're on a machine that will continue to roll so the physical effort is much less. I guess its like a 200m swimmer all of a sudden being top at the 10k swim. No idea if that is possible or if it has been done.

Its a good and valid comment though, but would have had much more effect if it had been Hoy that won the Tour or if Wiggins had been a top class sprint rider (and not a TT or pursuit rider).

Most good 10k swimmers would be good 800,1500 metre swimmers, and even 400m at a stretch. Keri-Anne Payne was certainly useful, if not quite world class, over pool distances.

But track to road was a more common transition in the past than it is now.

 

[peloton]

I dont disagree. But still, does anyone actually think Andy was clean?

OT, no.
But talented? Sure.

 

[Justinr]

he doesn't say that

Ok - one of the most doped up. Symantics there Sniper ... Jeez

 

[Justinr]

Do tell the last time a track Olympic medalist won the Tour, I'm all ears

Do tell the last time a track Olympic medalist even bothered to try and win the tour. Just because it hadnt been tried before (afaik) doesnt mean it wasnt possible.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

OT, no.
But talented? Sure.

Don't think hes talented (in reference). Top top talent would shine much more frequently. Andy is like Armstrong, only capable of performing with massive amounts of drugs in the body imo.

Superior responder, our little Andy.

 

[Justinr]

But track to road was a more common transition in the past than it is now.

That may be the case but it doesnt mean its not possible. And i'm sure in the past most of that would be to be a good sprinter or prologue racer (Boardman, Cavendish from a UK point of view) - had anyone really tried to go for a GT win before? Just because something hasnt been done before doesnt make it impossible.

 

[the sceptic]

Do tell the last time a track Olympic medalist even bothered to try and win the tour. Just because it hadnt been tried before (afaik) doesnt mean it wasnt possible.

If Cavendish wins the tour, will it be more or less belivable than Wiggins?

 

[The Hitch]

Its a point I have made a few times - as usual to much ridicule. Wiggins is an odd sod and this has been admitted publicly by Sutton. In his early years he couldn't cope with the fame after the 2004 Olympics and spent months drunk. Later on (and consistently over the years) he suffered from lack of confidence causing a slap dash attitude to training and hence variable results.

A lot of this goes to understanding his up and down form and bigger increase when someone finally got him on the straight and narrow. Of course to a lot of people this variation and subsequent improvement = doping, but hey that's their view.

You are surprised when posts like this get ridiculed

Are you wiggos psychiatrist now? You've read in a couple of articles on Wiggins and from that established he is the only rider in the history of cycling with the mentality to beat dopers clean

Same arguments were used for Lance. Fans read articles about how dedicated Lance was and came on sites like these to lecture people who actually knew what doping was and how it worked, about how if only they knew Lance's mentality and how motivated he could become they would understand what he did was clean.

PS : Spending the first 6 years of your road career without ever once showing a hint of an ability to climb a mountain is not "up and down". If wiggins was up and down he would have showed his talent at some point pre 2009.

But you knew that.

 

[The Hitch]

If Wiggins was cleans then so was Andy Schleck. But then how does one explain that he can barely get over a speedbump these days?

Obviously both of them being dopers makes much more sense.

You have to understand Andy Schleck's mentality. He has trouble getting motivated so has up and down moments. To some people Finishing 2nd in the 2009 Tour de France is doping. But those with expertise in psychoanalyzing people over the internet, know it was all in his head.

 

[red_flanders]

This isn't an abstract question of "can a track rider become a GT rider?"

The answer to that is "it depends on the rider."

The question is "Is it possible for Brad Wiggins, an Olympic-level track rider in pursuit, become a GT champion?"

The answer before mid-2009 was decidedly, unquestionably, "No. Not even close."

After 2009 the only remaining question is "How did he do it?"

If people want to believe "by focusing on road racing", that's your prerogative. The rest of us will add it to a long list of unbelievable transformations that have literally NEVER panned out to be true. From 1989 or so on...

 

[The Hitch]

Yes and here we go again - full circle in The Clinic. As we all know Wiggins improved long before he was at Sky, and Froome had a blood parasite on and off for a couple of years (and one that doesn't always get cleared with one treatment). Shall we all click back to page 1?

"parasite on and off".

Educate yourself on Bilharzia son. Its either cleared or its not. Its not "on and off" anymore than a scar across the face is on and off. A scar doesn't just disapear one day then reappear the next. Nor does Bilharzia disapear one day for one gt then mysteriously reappear a month later.

The problem with the clinic is jokers like this who don't know a single thing about what they are talking about entering the discussion. IMO mods should remove people from discussions once they demonstrate a clear ignorance on the subject matter cos the end result is the same as trolling.

 

[The Hitch]

This isn't an abstract question of "can a track rider become a GT rider?"

The answer to that is "it depends on the rider."

The question is "Is it possible for Brad Wiggins, an Olympic-level track rider in pursuit, become a GT champion?"

The answer before mid-2009 was decidedly, unquestionably, "No. Not even close."

After 2009 the only remaining question is "How did he do it?"

If people want to believe "by focusing on road racing", that's your prerogative. The rest of us will add it to a long list of unbelievable transformations that have literally NEVER panned out to be true. From 1989 or so on...

And remember, wiggins focused on road racing 100% for 2 straight years between 2005 and 2007.

Failed miserably.

So it can't be that he focused on road racing, because that failed the first time. It has to be something else.

 

[Justinr]

You are surprised when posts like this get ridiculed

Are you wiggos psychiatrist now? You've read in a couple of articles on Wiggins and from that established he is the only rider in the history of cycling with the mentality to beat dopers clean

Same arguments were used for Lance. Fans read articles about how dedicated Lance was and came on sites like these to lecture people who actually knew what doping was and how it worked, about how if only they knew Lance's mentality and how motivated he could become they would understand what he did was clean.

PS : Spending the first 6 years of your road career without ever once showing a hint of an ability to climb a mountain is not "up and down". If wiggins was up and down he would have showed his talent at some point pre 2009.

But you knew that.

Ahhh the usual attack the poster not the post response from Hitch.

I've never claimed to be his psychiatrist - i just read what i read and watch interviews (more than a couple over the years) I have done with many sports people for many years, and i can see from those that Armstrong was a bully and that Wiggins is a very different character. I'm not saying Wiggins was the most super motivated person ever and i dont try and lecture about it BUT what i actually point out is the opposite, that he was often demotivated and lacked self belief. Have you ever suffered a mental illness? Do you know what it can do to someones belief, motivation, and drive? When you have experience of it i might begin to take your comments more seriously. There's a reason major sports teams employ psychiatrists and its not to make the coffee...

Oh and possibly spending 6 years flitting back and forth from track to road to track might not be the best thing when it comes to trying to excel as a GT rider (if one ever believed they might be a GC contender) . Doesnt mean your a donkey ...

 

[peloton]

Do tell the last time a track Olympic medalist even bothered to try and win the tour. Just because it hadnt been tried before (afaik) doesnt mean it wasnt possible.

Riiight. They didn't bother to try to win the Tour, because, they simply couldn't.

Again, can you give me a good reason why Sky's stage race results dramatically improved after they hired Dr. Leinders?
And why was he let go AFTER Wiggo won the Tour?

Now riddle me that.

 

[Justinr]

You have to understand Andy Schleck's mentality. He has trouble getting motivated so has up and down moments. To some people Finishing 2nd in the 2009 Tour de France is doping. But those with expertise in psychoanalyzing people over the internet, know it was all in his head.

Yawn .....

 

[Justinr]

"parasite on and off".

Educate yourself on Bilharzia son. Its either cleared or its not. Its not "on and off" anymore than a scar across the face is on and off. A scar doesn't just disapear one day then reappear the next. Nor does Bilharzia disapear one day for one gt then mysteriously reappear a month later.

The problem with the clinic is jokers like this who don't know a single thing about what they are talking about entering the discussion. IMO mods should remove people from discussions once they demonstrate a clear ignorance on the subject matter cos the end result is the same as trolling.

Firstly not true - Bilharzia can reoccur (either through not being zapped or through reinfection) AND treatment doesn't always clear it straight away. If you had bothered to do some BASIC research you'd have found that out - maybe too much trouble for you.

The problem in my view with the clinic is there are people like you who seem to spoil for a fight all the time with the newbies. Just because you have 10000+ posts doesn't make you knowledgeable - just a prolific poster. If you have a problem with my posts then report them - i think you'll find they are in line with Forum rules whereas the personal attacks in yours might raise a few eyebrows.

 

[the sceptic]

man this thread has gone downhill lately

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

... the former making a transformation never seen before in the sport.
Dr. Leinders was hired for good a reason.

Oh well... of course, if you only go back three years you won´t find another one. But the history of cycling is just a little longer.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Just a slight aside, why do you say the 2009 TdF was the most doped up? Why more so than 2005 or 06 or 07 (or any other recent year).

That is a big secret.