Team Ineos (Formerly the Sky thread)

[the sceptic]

http://www.express.co.uk/sport/othersport/472890/Team-Sky-call-for-WADA-intervention?

someone is lying.

 

[red_flanders]

someone is lying.

Just spinning.

Team Sky, which has won the last two Tours de France through Sir Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome, insists it no longer uses the substance and called for Tramadol to be outlawed so its use can be regulated using therapeutic use exemption certificates (TUEs).

Not that there's any difference.

 

[mewmewmew13]

and what was in that illegal bottle of Froome's last Tour??

 

[Mellow Velo]

Just spinning.

Not that there's any difference.

Or just repeating what they said 6 months ago.

 

[red_flanders]

Or just repeating what they said 6 months ago.

It's called "the non-denial denial".

 

[Ripper]

Like anyone a grey area is going to be defined differently.

I'd draw the line at prescription medication being used for non-therapeutic necessity.

Want to pop a inbuprofen or paracetamol to take the edge off on a long race, thats fine by me.

Tramadol, in a finish bottle is dodgy to me.

(Though I fully agree its 100% not 'doping' under WADA rules)

Antidpressants for depression = OK

Antidpressants for weight loss =/= OK

 

[nomapnocompass]

I also think it highly likely that a lot of cyclists are using thyroid supplementation in the form of levothyroxine (T4) and Liothyronine (T3). Both for weight loss and managing fatigue from high training loads. There is no way that an elite athlete could race with hyperthyroidism but careful management and dosage would allow the athlete to exist in a slightly hyperthyroid state which would, some evidence suggests, be beneficial to performance.

Interesting article here :- http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

 

[elduggo]

I also think it highly likely that a lot of cyclists are using thyroid supplementation in the form of levothyroxine (T4) and Liothyronine (T3). Both for weight loss and managing fatigue from high training loads. There is no way that an elite athlete could race with hyperthyroidism but careful management and dosage would allow the athlete to exist in a slightly hyperthyroid state which would, some evidence suggests, be beneficial to performance.

Interesting article here :- http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

Rupp is Mo Farah's training partner is he not?

Brits don't dope though. Hell no

 

[stutue]

No you would not.

If sky are only doping as much as those teams and the rest is talent, they are still doping

Let me simplify my point.

The premise is that ex-doper staff=doping team, therefore Sky are doping, but so is everybody else.

The premise isn't that Sky are NOT doping.

The point is, if Sky are doping and so is everyone else, what explains Sky's considerable success.

You seem to be advancing 'talent', and yet that flies in the face of other statements frequently made that Wiggins and Froome are not talented. In fact, it is the belief of their lack of previous talent that's leads to the conclusion that they must be doping, given their recent run of success.

The point I am getting at is that possibly the ZTP and Sky's pretty poor attempt at adhering to it cannot count as evidence of doping.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

I also think it highly likely that a lot of cyclists are using thyroid supplementation in the form of levothyroxine (T4) and Liothyronine (T3). Both for weight loss and managing fatigue from high training loads. There is no way that an elite athlete could race with hyperthyroidism but careful management and dosage would allow the athlete to exist in a slightly hyperthyroid state which would, some evidence suggests, be beneficial to performance.

Interesting article here :- http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

In the article you quote the IOC stated,

"A spokesman for the IOC said that the organization's belief, based on existing evidence, is that thyroid hormone used to excess "might have an anorexic or stimulant effect," but that it's more likely to inhibit than enhance performance."

 

[stutue]

Brits don't dope though. Hell no

No need to be facetious. I dont think the view that GB is dope free is widely held, do you?

You've even got a head of the UCI who says, and I quote:

" There are two types of sport. Those who have a dope problem, and those who think they don't".

 

[martinvickers]

Sky doctor said they use it 'minimally'
Barry said riders used it every race they entered.

I have yet to read the book, obviously, but my understanding from the article was that by 'riders' he meant the general peloton.

i.e
- Some Sky riders used it regularly,
- Some riders generally used it every race they entered.

Happy to have full quote quoted in context in case i'm mistaken in that.

Sky seem pretty adamant about not using the last two years, presumably they feel they can back that up with some form of 'audit trail' or else they are leaving a huge hostage to fortune; which by implication clearly means, at the least, they used it before that. and if Barry is to be believed, quite regularly.

Does that timescale, by chance, coincide with Leinders employment? Even IF (note, IF) he didn't dope them, that would seem the sort of 'trick' a doctor in the know might have up his sleeve. "it's not doping, perfectly legal..."

Of course, it's not impossible that, say, Farrall comes in, notes the Tramadol abuse, gives off a bit of internal stink, Sky put down a 'policy', but that certain riders are still sourcing it externally in the safe and certain knowledge that it's not banned or tested per se in any case. Plausible deniability with no realistic repercussions.

The thought also occurs if they aren't using Tramadol, what the hell did they give Geraint Thomas to allow him to ride the Tour with a broken a*se.

 

[simoni]

I also think it highly likely that a lot of cyclists are using thyroid supplementation in the form of levothyroxine (T4) and Liothyronine (T3). Both for weight loss and managing fatigue from high training loads. There is no way that an elite athlete could race with hyperthyroidism but careful management and dosage would allow the athlete to exist in a slightly hyperthyroid state which would, some evidence suggests, be beneficial to performance.

Interesting article here :- http://online.wsj.com/news/articles...0001424127887323550604578412913149043072.html

I think there's no doubt this is occurring. Its a pretty much open secret that some British distance runners are taking this medication to treat bogus thyroid problems. The performance gains aren't enough to turn donkeys into racehorses but they are turning sub-elites into internationals and internationals into medal contenders.

Within the rules but morally wrong.

Its strongly suspected that Salazars training group are on this for the same reasons.

 

[fmk_RoI]

my understanding from the article was that by 'riders' he meant the general peloton.

At the point in the book where Tramadol gets mentioned his timeline goes to pot and it's not clear what teams he's talking about. You should be able to read the main stuff here. He uses teams plural, so is not just Sky he is referring to, and he is not just referring to team-mates.

 

[fmk_RoI]

it's not impossible that, say, Farrall comes in, notes the Tramadol abuse, gives off a bit of internal stink, Sky put down a 'policy'

That is at the least implied, if not explicit, in at least one interview Farrell gave, that things were maybe a little more lax before he joined. Can't remember where but am pretty sure it's in the Walsh book.

 

[fmk_RoI]

The thought also occurs if they aren't using Tramadol, what the hell did they give Geraint Thomas to allow him to ride the Tour with a broken a*se.

Ibuprofen and paracetamol. Barry mentions Ibuprofen and several other drugs, not just Tramadol.

 

[gooner]

That is at the least implied, if not explicit, in at least one interview Farrell gave, that things were maybe a little more lax before he joined. Can't remember where but am pretty sure it's in the Walsh book.

I can't remember it in Walsh's book.

Would this be it?

Allan Farrell, a full-time doctor with Team Sky since 2012, told Cyclingnews that Tramadol is, “an effective pain killer when it’s used in the clinically appropriate scenario. Certainly in our team we would have used it in the past but only when justified.”

“We would have prescribed it, very minimally but sometimes if someone had an injury that justified pain killing medication.”

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/team-sky-calls-for-tramadol-ban-in-peloton

EDIT:

Walsh also quizzed Sky's chief doctor, Alan Farrell, about therapeutic use exemptions (TUEs) which have been one route taken by cyclists seeking unethical advantages.

They claim a medical reason for needing a banned corticosteroid, persuade the team doctor to apply for it and try to beat the system that way.

But Farrell told Walsh: "I've been with the team since April last year, almost 16 months. Applications for TUEs come from me and in my time, we have applied for two TUEs."

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling...-froome-unfair-journalist-20130722-2qf3v.html

 

[martinvickers]

Ibuprofen and paracetamol. Barry mentions Ibuprofen and several other drugs, not just Tramadol.

Thanks for all this, it's really very useful. I can see there's a fine line, where it might be legit enough to treat cycling 'niggles' with over the counter painkillers...but at what point does use become abuse. there's clearly a growing feeling that Tramadol's the 'other' side of the line, which is a good thing.

Mind you, if Thomas finished that tour with a broken a*se on not much more than what you'd give a child with a heavy cold, one wonders what on earth could justify Tramadol?

Walsh clearly liked the 'cut of Farrall's jib' from the book. Going by Kimmo's 'f***ing hypocrites' tweeting last night, he seems rather less enthused

 

[martinvickers]

Antidpressants for depression = OK

Antidpressants for weight loss =/= OK

I have a very vague memory of reading Steve Peters may have prescribed antidepressents to several of the track riders pre London. Unnamed, but Pendleton seemed an obvious option at the time.

 

[Catwhoorg]

Thanks for all this, it's really very useful. I can see there's a fine line, where it might be legit enough to treat cycling 'niggles' with over the counter painkillers...but at what point does use become abuse. there's clearly a growing feeling that Tramadol's the 'other' side of the line, which is a good thing.

Mind you, if Thomas finished that tour with a broken a*se on not much more than what you'd give a child with a heavy cold, one wonders what on earth could justify Tramadol?

Walsh clearly liked the 'cut of Farrall's jib' from the book. Going by Kimmo's 'f***ing hypocrites' tweeting last night, he seems rather less enthused

Anecdotally, using both ibuprofen and paracetamol is very effective. I was diagnosed with calcified tendonitis in my shoulder earlier this year, and took that combination to get me through a couple of half marathons.

Wasn't much of an issue on the bike, but the impact of running really jarred it, and caused very significant pain.

The combination together is more than I would give my daughter. (though in line with peadiatric advice we typically alternate which one we give)

 

[Catwhoorg]

Besides Thomas' injury (which I think would justify Tramadol, though I am happy he didn't take it) a couple fo thoughts where it may be appropriate.

Any non-weight bearing broken bone (wrist/rib).

Severe road rash (and only to help the rider sleep, not to race).


Those could easily be managed through TUE's, thats what the whole process is FOR. If its justified medically, a TUE will be granted. If it isn't then why is the doctor prescribing it ?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Walsh clearly liked the 'cut of Farrall's jib' from the book.

Walsh liked the cut of Nicolás Terrados's jib in 1993, if you recall. So not sure Farrell-fans should crow about that one...

 

[martinvickers]

Anecdotally, using both ibuprofen and paracetamol is very effective. I was diagnosed with calcified tendonitis in my shoulder earlier this year, and took that combination to get me through a couple of half marathons.

Wasn't much of an issue on the bike, but the impact of running really jarred it, and caused very significant pain.

The combination together is more than I would give my daughter. (though in line with peadiatric advice we typically alternate which one we give)

Unfortunately I find paracetamol as good as useless - my fault, not the drug's; I have a weird resistance to drugs and chemicals generally - it has caused some doctors, esp anaesthetists a bit of a heart flutter over the years ("are you STILL awake, Mr XXX?" before an appendectomy). It also, rather more annoyingly reduces the usefulness of alcohol and caffeine. My wife's the exact opposite - one glass of wine, merry; one non-decaf coffee - manic. Meanwhile I mainline diet Red Bull and fall asleep!

'Profen's a bit better, but unfortunately I usually have to start bidding at co-codamol and quickly going higher for any standard significant pain. Or, just grit the teeth and get on with it, more often than not.

My son has asthma, so he doesn't get 'profen at all, which is a pain in the *** - but he does respond well, unlike me, to paracetemol; We alternate with the girl, and it works a treat.

My mother, as I mentioned somewhere else, had a fairly spectacular operation (removed jawbone, replaced with rib) which meant she went on the good hard stuff for a while. She loved it, as memory serves...

 

[martinvickers]

Walsh liked the cut of Nicolás Terrados's jib in 1993, if you recall. So not sure Farrell-fans should crow about that one...

I was merely highlighting the comparison

 

[elduggo]

No need to be facetious. I dont think the view that GB is dope free is widely held, do you?

no, not widely held in general, but almost universally held by British people (similarly to how Americans thought the same of their athletes in Lance's poisoned era)